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RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:22 PM
Andrew Hollenbeck wrote:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=122395951

^^This is the type of training I speak of. If anyone wants to chime in, just take the time to read the first page to get a gist of what I speak of. This type of training is very intriguing and a lot of the things that Broz says does make sense, and I have experienced a lot of the feelings he talks of.

My question is, is this type of training realistic? AND Is the thought of attempting something of this magnitude possible to do naturally?

The anecdotal evidence of its success is certainly out there (Pat Mendes squatting 771 at 19 years old). I also think that applying RTS principles could really shine with a program like this. The question is, is it worth a shot trying it naturally? Or is the risk of injury/burning out, etc etc too much?

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:23 PM
PFAA wrote:
How would you apply RTS to it though? Broz says something to the extent that no matter how overeaching/overtrained you are you should train trough it unless you are injured. Then go the the ER.

Which either is a big big hyperbole, or goes right into the face of what Mike says, I guess.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:24 PM
Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
I hope I'm not squashing a potential discussion too early here...

I think we just need to be specific with what principles you want to apply and to what extreme are you trying to apply them. Then it needs to be put in the context of the athlete. Eric Talmant has been training in a similar method for almost a year. He does only singles and works to limit weights up to 3 times a week. His actual routine is a bit more complicated than that, but you get the idea. However, others have tried the same thing and it did not work, which suggests that this style of training must address a specific deficiency -- in which case if you don't have that deficiency, it won't work. It might sound "fun" to max out everyday, but it's only fun if you get stronger. If you don't, it gets depressing in a hurry.

There are some things that Broz says that I wholeheartedly disagree with. The notion that you just beat your body down and if you keep going it will magically recover... not reasonable. And not practical for most people. I see what he's saying about working hard, but it seems like he may not have the same definition of overtraining as everyone else. If you are sore, tired, unmotivated, etc, that is not always overtraining. Overtraining is an actual syndrome that occurs when the workload outstrips the body's ability to keep up. Saying it doesn't exist would require you to ignore Style's Stress Diagram -- a staple in understanding human physiology. To simply ignore it out of convenience is irresponsible.
Now, a better question... do most people experience actual overtraining? Well, again, it depends on your definition. Pushing into the actual exhaustion phase where organs begin to shut down... probably doesn't happen much in athletics. But one thing that improved physiological monitoring has shown us is that we experience different levels of stress when we train. The analogy of a garbage man chucking cans and a high level athlete just doesn't correlate. There are limits to human physiology. And as such, there is such a thing as being in shape and being out of shape -- it's not simply relative. If you are out of shape (the new garbage man), then yes, your body likely has the adaptive reserves to allow you to push through. If you are in good shape and still stress your body to the point where it is not recovering, your body likely doesn't have the adaptive reserves to let you push through that threshold, and thus you need to take a break. Of course there can be exceptions to every rule, so simply having an example to support your case doesn't prove you're right.

If you're looking to do some ultra-high-intensity training, draw something up and lets put our heads together and see if we can make it work. You're of high enough classification for this kind of training. We just need to figure out if there's anything else to consider.

A bit of advice for everyone. If you are looking at training materials and someone makes a blanket statement, "everyone should always do x no matter what," you should really think twice before you listen. Be cautious of "unequivocal truths" because in this business, there are too many variables for something to be true for everyone.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:24 PM
PFAA wrote:
That is very interesting to me. I thought Eric was knee deep in Sheiko?

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:25 PM
French Matt wrote:
Very interesting thread. Are you going for something like this Andrew ?

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:25 PM
PFAA wrote:
Also it would be interesting to post Broz's system for powerlifting. i remember something like squating and deadlifting everyday and doing bench press and some form of reverse motion shoulder work 3 times a week. I did a quick search but it is 14 pages... Found nothing. If someone has it please post it!

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:26 PM
MikePop wrote:
This is taken from page 2 of the massive post on bodybuilding.com



"day 1,2,3,4,5,6: squat to max (best weight at perfect competiotion technique) + back off sets of minimum 3x2, upto max of 50 reps. going back upto max or beyond if the weights start to feel light enough

day 1,3,5 bench press to max (2 wide,1 close grip)+ back off sets (quantity will need some experiment because I have not tried with bench in over 10 yrs)

day 2,4,6 deadlift 2-3 x 10 sets all from floor. vary % based on positions and back health

If you are gonna train 4x/wk then day 5&6 will be in the next week.

any assistance rehab/bodybuilding such as pullups, dumbell flyes etc should follow at the end as well as grip work based on how you feel. These are optional and should be done at discresion

Most importantly- speed is ALWAYS the priority! When squatting and pulling getting up fast is soooo important, as well as the bench. Doing the press quickly to generate power is key too. going slow with light weights is a big NO NO!!"

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:26 PM
PFAA wrote:
If speed is always the point does that mean that he really wants to see a x1@10, or maybe he just wants a x1@7 each day? It would make it more acessible in my mind.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:27 PM
Andrew Hollenbeck wrote:
Mike, thanks for clearing a lot of that up for us! that was a very very helpful post. I was kind of under the impression that it was a lunatic routine, but there was a handful of people (including the freak Mendes) doing well on it so I figured I would throw the idea of this routine out there.



As for how i was considering using RTS for this, mostly for the back down sets. I was thinking that if this routine was possible, using fatigue percents and RPEs for the back down sets could really fine tune the program but Mike clearly laid out a lot of physiological principles of why this routine is border line impossible

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:27 PM
MikePop wrote:
Andrew were you suggesting working up to a single each session at a 9 or 9.5 RPE and then dorpping the weight down to the 80-85% range and using fatigue percents?



What are your thoughts on that sort of approach Mike? This sort of approach does have some built in auto-regulation to prevent you from over training.



1. If you limit the RPE to 9 or even 9.5 you won't actually be doing a balls to the wall single every day. Some days you will be able to lift more than others. As long as you are honest with yourself and don't try to squeeze that extra 5-10 lbs out every session this will not turn into grinding reps every workout.

2. Using fatigue percents will prevent you from doing outrageous volumes, some days you will be able to do more than others the key is knowing when to shut it down. Also if you base the 80-85% weight off the single you just performed weight selection should be straight forward.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:28 PM
Andrew Hollenbeck wrote:
Yes this was the idea. Plus with TRAC on the verge of release, I was thinking that it would be easier to monitor the day to day stress and modify things from that as well.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:28 PM
PFAA wrote:
I want to say something. Altough I consider that even maxing everyday on teh squat wouldn't work (if we are talking about a psyched up competition max) maxing everyday on your not-psyched up squat is different. Even more different it would be to max on your speed squat.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:29 PM
MikePop wrote:
He is not suggesting you max out to a 7RPE. He says in the thread that you max out to teach yourself to use heavier weights and the back down sets are used for power development. From what I read max out means a training max every day. That means between 9 and 10 RPE.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:29 PM
Dano wrote:
I followed similar training principles in college and a few years after when I was Olympic lifting. In the mornings I'd work up to a training max in the power clean and snatch and front or back squat. Keep in mind this was a TRAINING MAX, not an all out, psyched up nut busting max. Evenings would be the same but using a full snatch and clean and jerk, along with squats. This worked ok for awhile but I didn't have a good base when I started this so I burned out eventually.

I continued to use the same training principle but down to 3-5 days a week, once a day. At my strongest, I was training only 2-3 days a week.

Applying this to powerlifting would require a lot of vigilance. You drop your snatches and cleans, hence no eccentric portion. This allows for a lot more volume.

And I'm not sold on the focus on speed with powerlifting. There is a very valid thought that training speed needs to match competition speed. This isn't saying you deliberately slow down the lighter lifts but you are going all out. Apparently, different muscle groups are recruited differently with different speeds. Essentially, this all wraps around to the specificity concept.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:29 PM
Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
The idea of working up to a frequent daily max (@9-10) is not bad. You'll see that as I enter my realization block, I will be doing something similar (mock-meets twice per week). But there is a list of stipulations I would put on it.
-- You must be of a high enough level, or you probably wouldn't benefit from that kind of work
-- You must be adequately prepared, or much of the work will be wasted
-- You must be good at managing your own workloads. Misses are expensive.

And I personally wouldn't recommend it for long periods of time, either. It can be hard on your body. Additionally, you need to train other physiological abilities that can't be trained using max effort singles (hypertrophy, work capacity, certain energy systems). So I think this method can be good for some lifters at certain stages of training, but as an overall training philosophy... I think there are better ones out there.

It's just that even if you're doing non-psyched training maxes, you'll still hit 95%+ every session.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:30 PM
Mark wrote:
Do we KNOW that it won't work for lower classifications, i.e. has it been tested extensively?

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:30 PM
Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
Tested extensively? No. But it has been tested. Some people it tends to work for. Others it doesn't. Athletes of lower qualification tend to have more trouble with high intensity programs.

And that really resonates with my understanding of training progression as well. At lower qualifications, time is better spent focused on morphological changes -- something that the brief maximal tension method does not emphasize. An accumulation of volume is also important -- again, not something this provides. But once you cross into the MS reigon, *generally* you gravitate toward higher intensity programming, which tend to be the kinds of guys this has worked well for. So while it has not been exensively tested, the tests that have been done seem to support the life-cycle kind of training progression. And when you think about it from a physiological perspective, it makes sense.

That said, don't let me stop you if this is something you really want to try. If you decide to experiment with it, I encourage you to make it your own in as many ways as possible. Use TRAC, other RTS principles, etc. Remember, the RTS stuff is the scope that goes on the rifle of your core training system. If you want to try to use this "rifle", that's cool. I would just encourage you to use a good "scope" with it so you can be as successful as possible! And make sure you record your results!

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:31 PM
Mark wrote:
It wasn't something I wanted to try just yet, I was just curious. I'm currently focusing on morphological changes for at least the next year or so, it was just something I was interested in and will certainly give a shot at some point just to see what happens.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:32 PM
gunterdemey wrote:
You have to understand that this is not a program for everyone ,every sport and the whole year.

-It's a program for people with superior recovery that are chosen because of it.Abadjiev used to organize weightlifting camps for youth of 10-15 years old from complete beginners to already athletes with some background for let's say 6 weeks training them 2-3-4 times a day.Out of say 50 children that were there in the beginning maybe 10 finished it and half of them needed hospitalization for injury or overexertion.

-Weightlifting movements have no negative part so recovery is easier than powerlifting,a weightlifting program couldn't possibly apply to powerlifting at such high percentages.

-It's a program used for 2 month periods within the year with the rest of the year being maintainance periods or complete or active rest.During these periods training is super intensive and progresses from once to the 3 or 4 times per day of training even for top athletes.Then,based on the knowledge of great recovery ability,technical skill and psychological ability the training built on to a performance level already established in the past and hopefully a bit beyond.

The name of the game is that training is broken down to small bits and thus intensity is kept high and the whole trining block lasts just so long that it's enough for the desired adaptations to occur but not enough for exhaustion tosettle in-it's a very delicate balance and needs a very experienced and well knowledged person to be the head coach.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:32 PM
Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
Good post gunterdemey.

However, I will say (and I'm sure you'd agree) that if you turn down the volume/frequency, the program becomes more accessible to average lifters and powerlifters. That doesn't necessarily mean it will build strength -- just that it shouldn't put you in the hospital!

Do you happen to have a reference for what you said about them only carrying this training out for 2-3 months out of the year? I've often thought that such brutal loading parameters couldn't be a constant, but I can't find any references either way. So I suppose I'm looking for a bit of ammunition... :)

I also agree with you that it's critical to know when to push it and when to back off. An experienced coach is very helpful, but so is a wide range of diagnostic equipment as well!

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:33 PM
jwzrd wrote:
It's easy to forget that these methods were cultivated in a time when use of various Testosterone and its synthetic derivates were the norm. It's a well-known fact that Bulgaria (and most/all) other eastern block countries employed these things. That has a number of implications - some of which include not needing the same amount of accumulative / hypertrophy-specific traning since simply ingesting AAS will do that. That's not even mentioning the very much higher restoration rate.

It was mentioned somewhere else also about the selection aspect. You pick a traning style that, when successful, will produce world champions. Then employ that en masse on all lifters comming in until a world champion comes out the other end - weeding out everyone that just does not have it and, more importantly, those who would benifit from a different style of programming.

Trying to improve clean atheletes / trying to improve AS a clean athlete is fairly different from enhanced counterparts.

((I am not implying that Pat Mendez, his trainiers or anyone else associated with them are on something!)

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:34 PM
gunterdemey wrote:
If by reference is meant a text or book citation ,i do not have any.

I have knowledge by training in the same training hall with elite weightlifters of countries using the Bulgarian system or close derivatives (Bulgarian Greek and Iranian weightlifters) .Most of this system is anecdotal as it is the sole product of a mind of one person who kept the "copyright" by sharing with a very select few.What would come next many times susprised many of his own athletes as he had a way of recognizing technical issues or recovery issues he hardly shared.For example he could have 2 athletes lifting in the same category,about to compete in the same meet,using the same weights more or less and have one max out for 3 sets and the other for 20.After a while one could see some logic but the underlying concept was never really shared and that's why he was called "the fox".

Of course this system was based on the use of banned substances,this is why these camps were in hard to find places and not even the families of the athletes knew where they were,and this is how an athlete snatching for maintainance 130 kilos would lift 180 after 7 weeks.This is another reason why the system was never formally known by many-if you knew the system you would know when to search for the athletes.

I hardly believe anyone can approach world class levels without any banned substance help just because for the last 50 years all records have been set with banned substance help,but i don't think this discussion should take place here.The last comment i'm going to make here is that common sense should prevail above and beyond what some coach can say about his group-Abadjiev after having his whole team disqualified from 2 Olympics (and after at least 3 of his byproduct groups Greece,Turkey and Iran were disqualified as whole teams too) still swears that he has never given his athletes any banned substance and that according to his knowledge nobody he ever trained ever took anything banned...

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:34 PM
PFAA wrote:
Is that what Broz is doing, though? it appears to me, at least, that both he trains whoever comes, and also this goes year-long.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:38 PM
thedane wrote:

I found an article thats defending the issues of overtraining with a training program based on the bulgarian method.



Article:

The general adaptation theory states that when an organism is placed under a certain stimulus, that organism will become adapted to that stimulus.

Let's talk about the adaptive theory from a weightlifting perspective.

In the 70s and 80s, the Bulgarian national team was one of the most dominant weightlifting teams in the world. No other team produced medals and champions on an international basis as consistently and as frequently as the Bulgarians.

The significance of this is that the population of Bulgaria is some 8 million; in comparison to the US, the Soviet Union, China, etc., Bulgaria had a much smaller talent pool to train from, and yet it was the Bulgarians who dominated the medal stands, and it was the Bulgarians who ranked at the top of the end-of-year list every year.

During the years of Bulgaria's strong weightlifting presence, Ivan Abadjiev presided as head coach of its national team.

Abadjiev's training methods at the time were unheard of. His athletes trained twice a day, six days a week. There were no assigned "light" days, a very high percentage of the training sessions called for a certain high "limit" percentage of the athlete's maximum ability, i.e. 95% of his best snatch, 97% of his best clean-and-jerk, 97% of his best front squat, etc., and the numbers were generally assigned by a coach or trainer. Also, the athletes competed much more frequently, and competitions were incorporated as an integral part of the training cycle, meaning there was essentially no defined endpoint to training - there was no "off-season," which is often viewed as a requirement in all athletics. It is commonly accepted that there must be an extended period of time in which the athlete is not training and competing for sport in order to recover physically and psychologically. The methodology under which the Bulgarian national team trained was so radical and so distinct, that it became known as "the Bulgarian method." It is important to note that the so-called Bulgarian method was not a static set of rules and numbers. Abadjiev was constantly adjusting the application of training in order to improve performance; most notably he would later emphasize specificity, meaning that the training of the national team revolved around an increasingly small amount of movements. Only movements with high correlation and carry-over to the competition movements, such as the front squat, overhead squat, and snatch/clean high pulls were implemented in training.

Traditional understanding of muscle development calls for 48-72 hours of rest between training muscle groups. The theory behind this is that the muscle fibers that are damaged in training take time to repair and grow back stronger than before. Another important aspect of commonly-accepted methods of strength training at the time was that when the neuromuscular system became over-taxed through constant, heavy training, i.e. lifting maximal weights on a day-to-day basis, the central nervous system would inhibit the function of motor units in order to protect the body from injury due to over-straining.

Neuromuscular inhibition had already been established in adaptive theory. It is a protective mechanism employed by the body to avoid injury from frequently producing muscle tension that may potentially cause damage to connective tissue, joints, etc. This and other related signs of physiological and psychological distress and decreased performance are often collectively called over-training syndrome by those who believe such a condition exists.

The accepted training model at the time was based on the idea of periodization. Sports periodization is based on the concept that the body can be over-stressed by stimuli (training), and so progressive periods of variation are required over a training cycle in which variables in training (in weightlifting, "volume," amount of repetitions, and "intensity," effort required to move weight, which is quantified by measurements of heart-rate, pulse-rate, blood pressure, etc.) must be adjusted to develop specific aspects of muscle fitness. The general model used is to begin with a high-volume, low-intensity phase, then progressively decrease volume and increase intensity. The progressive training loads are divided into distinct phases that focus on a particular aspect of muscle fitness; muscle endurance, speed-strength, strength, etc., and following competition there is usually some period of rest or sport-inactivity in order to allow the athlete to recover from the stressor.

Periodized training does produce improvements in performance, and is still a common and arguably effective training method.

And yet Abadjiev's system contradicted the accepted principles of periodization in almost every way.

What made it successful was a different interpretation of the idea of adaptation, the recognition of the human body's ability to adapt to a stressor, or to adjust into an adapted state.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:39 PM
thedane continued:
There was a study in the 1960s in which a certain group of proteins was observed in animals recovering from starvation; these stress-response proteins were demonstrated to play a crucial role in muscle gene expression. These same proteins were also observed in animals in an exhausted or injured state.

This was the principle behind Abadjiev's method; constantly stress the body and mind to a certain extent to which they can adapt. This meant frequently lifting a certain limit percentage of the athlete's maximum ability and forcing the athlete's body to adapt to the training, not to train the body to simply respond to stimuli, but to force the body into a stress-response state, an adapted state. This was achieved through intense and frequent training (high-intensity and high-volume as opposed to periodization's method of adjusting one inversely with the other), as well as the integration of competitions into the training cycle, in order to induce a psychological as well as a physical stressor upon the athlete. Abadjiev believed that the stress-response proteins found in the starvation-recovery and exhausted animals indicated that the bodies of those animals were function at an "accelerated" state that promoted muscle function, i.e. a state that would allow them to escape predators and survive more efficiently, which would explain their role in muscle gene expression and possibly increasing the potential for muscle and neuromuscular recovery. He believed that a similar state could be induced in the human body to facilitate an increased and more intense training load than could normally be adapted to.

In a more recent study conducted at Midwestern State University, several experienced weightlifters were trained on a twice-a-day schedule, six days a week, in which they lifted high percentages of their maximum abilities, very similar to Abadjiev's system. For the first week, the weightlifters experienced the predicted effects of this type of training; muscle soreness, an initial decline in performance, a general sense of fatigue. However, after the initial week, the weightlifters no longer experienced the pronounced muscle soreness or the feeling of being physically drained; also notable were improvements in performance, i.e. lifting higher maximum weights on prescribed days, and a psychological sense of some weights "feeling easier."

After a period of six weeks, the weightlifters were taken off the high-intensity training. They either trained at very light percentages of their abilities or did not train at all. A week after this, upon returning to training they experienced fatigue, a decline in performance, etc.

There were two important observations from this experiment: the weightlifters at first were unable to perform well under the given conditions (the stimuli of frequent and heavy training) until there was some tangible change in their body. Second, their bodies remained in this state until the stimulus had been removed. These observations indicated that the weightlifters had become adapted to the level of training, but remained adapted only so long as they continued to maintain or increase the difficulty in training (increasing volume or weight).

Abadjiev's application of the adaptation theory called for the human body to be placed under an environment of near-constant stress, both physically and psychologically. His training system was, in his words:

"(Not) like any other system in the world. It contradicted every basic principles. In Bulgaria, many other sports disciplines are build on the methods developed by the Soviet experts. The main concept is distinct periodization, preparation stage, interim stage, competition stage. I threw it away at once. When a rabbit is being chased by the wolf, does he have an interim stage for running? Yes, he can hide in the bushes but he is ready to start running 100 percent at any time. Is it logical to achieve outstanding results by hard work and then to stop and to go back to a lower level?"

To allow the body to rest and "recover," to Abadjiev, meant to return the body into the "recovered" state - that is, the state in which all physiological functions were normal, the state in which muscle development and neuromuscular function were not in a stress-response state. To remove the stimulus of intense training was to return the athlete to a lower level of performance.

The training system associated with Abadjiev's success as the head coach of the Bulgarian national team has influenced the methodology of weightlifting training everywhere. The resident athletes at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs are often said to train on a "modified" Bulgarian system. The Turkish national weightlifting team, one of the more recent successes in weightlifting, is known to train very similarly to Abadjiev's system with special emphasis on specificity; mature weightlifters have completely phased back squats out of their training in favor of the front squat due to its higher correlation with the clean-and-jerk. It is worth noting that several key athletes of the Turkish team, among them Halil Mutlu and now-retired Naim Suleymanoglu, were once Bulgarian citizens and competed as Bulgarians until they defected to their country of ethnic origin.

There are, of course, criticisms of Abadjiev's methodology. It is not without reason that he was known as "the butcher." The high-volume, high-intensity training was meant only for "mature" athletes, those weightlifters who had adequate exposure to the sport (began training in late childhood) and had developed the necessary basic strength and resilience of structure, tissue, psychology, etc. to train under the required circumstances. Even so, the injury rate within the Bulgarian national team was known to be excessively high in comparison to other teams, and while it consistently produced top-level competitors and champions, its athletes also had the shortest competition lifespans. Many were eventually overcome by injury or an accumulation of injuries and unable to continue training at the level of intensity and frequency necessary, at which point they were dismissed from their positions on the national team.

It is true that the human body can adapt to an environment or stimuli, but it is true only to a certain extent. Also, in a world in which medical science and technology and luxury allows maladaptations to go unnoticed, we often forget that when placed in a "toughest will survive" environment, not all subjected individuals are capable of producing the performance required of a national or world champion.

Many critics also feel that it is physiologically impossible to survive under the stress of Abadjiev's system without the use of anabolics or other substances banned in the athletic world. It is well-known that top-level weightlifters are well "supplemented" with "adaptogens" and "restoratives" by their coaches, nutritionists, and pharmacologists; athletes on national teams also have access to various resources such as massage, contrast baths, acupuncture, etc. that aid in the recovery process. Also, the talent pool in the countries where training similar to Abadjiev's is successful is much, much larger than in countries where the system is criticized for its irrationality, ineffectiveness, etc., meaning that many of the athletes with the potential to improve under the Bulgarian method are unavailable due to their involvement in other, more mainstream sports.

Despite the criticisms against it, the principles of Abadjiev's method are undeniably an important training resource. It is perhaps best perceived not as the most effective training method, but as one effective training method. However, the importance in the Bulgarian method today is not the actual system, but its implications. When the Bulgarian method was first scrutinized by outside observers, it was radical and blasphemous, and yet it was accurately based on the understanding of the human body at the time. There will never be a truly perfect training method, as the functioning of the human body will never be completely and perfectly understood. Rather than follow Abadjiev's principles, it is more important to continue to search for training methodologies that reflect our understanding of human physiology.



Sources cited:

"The muscle ankyrin repeat proteins: CARP, ankrd2/Arpp and DARP as a family of titin filament-based stress response molecules." J Mol Biol. 2003 Nov 7;333(5):951-64.

Fleck, S. J. (1999). Periodized strength training: A critical review. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 13, 82-89.

"Ivan Abadzhiev: Very Heavy Weightlifting." http://www.chidlovski.net/liftup/a_interview_abadzhiev_111999.asp

Kilgore, J.L., G.P. Pendlay, J.S. Reeves, and T.G. Kilgore. "Serum chemistry and hematological adaptations to 6 weeks of moderate to intense resistance training." Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 16(4):509-15. 2002.

Stone, M. H., O'Bryant, H. S., Schilling, B. K., Johnson, R. L., Pierce, K.C., Haff, G. G., and Stone, M. (1999). Periodization: Effects of manipulating volume and intensity. Part 2. Strength and Conditioning Journal, 21(3), 54-60.

Stone, M. H., O'Bryant, H. S., Schilling, B. K., Johnson, R. L., Pierce, K.C., Haff, G. G., and Stone, M. (1999). Periodization: Effects of manipulating volume and intensity. Part 1. Strength and Conditioning Journal, 21(3), 54-60.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:39 PM
Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
What an article....

I don't know exactly how to respond in an easy to read fashion, but I'll try.

If anyone who tries to coach you says "Overtraining is a myth," run the other direction. When you train, at what time are you strongest -- at the beginning of the session or at the end? At the beginning of course. So if you were to keep training perpetually without a break, what would happen? You would get weaker and weaker until you hit exhaustion.

FYI, I'm not directing any of this at you, thedane, more at the author of this article and anyone else who says stuff like, "overtraining is a myth."

Style's Stress Diagram is NOT arguable! I don't know why people can't see that. Look at Navy SEALs during Hell Week. They train constantly for 5 days. They don't suddenly "adapt" and complete it with ease! There is a steadily degrading situation where the trainees get more and more exhausted. By the end, many are having hallucinations, there are hospitalizations, etc. The instructors there mitigate this risk by MONITORING THEIR PHYSIOLOGY. When things slide out of tolerance, they react to it.

Now, the actual rate at which someone adapts to training is a much more valid argument. That is to say, through training the body can get to the point where it adapts faster. This is true, but this is also not an argument that is made by the proponents of this method.

Even this can be measured. Look at TRAC. This is a method of monitoring your physiology. When is it okay to train? When is it not okay to train? Your body can tell you. And it depends on how much you train, how heavy you train, and a ton of other things.

The study at Midwestern State doesn't suggest what the author says. As a coach, I wouldn't be against the idea of a six week transmutation block, which is more or less what they suggest. And if they train according to their physiology (i.e. they are not showing signs of overtraining), then I would have no reason to pull the plug on the training block. However, I have actually TRIED this for six weeks before and it did not produce results for me. Why? I don't know, but clearly my body cannot adapt to it. On the other hand, next week I begin my 3 week Realization period that will look somewhat similar to this method. In that low of a dose, with adequate preparation, it should work like a charm.

And even the rabbit has fast days and slow days. Why do you think we still have wolves around?

The part about Abajiev being called The Butcher makes a point I have been stating for years. The system may produce, say 1 champion out of every 1000 trained. That's not what I'm trying to do at all. I'm trying to produce 1 lifter-at-maximum-potential out of every 1 trained. If I as a coach injure even just a quarter of the athletes that hire me, I have failed them as a coach. They hire me to get THEM better -- not to be part of a talent pool. Self-coached lifters are in a similar situation. The population of Bulgaria was small? Well the population of our own personal talent pools is smallest of all. The method HAS to be adaptable to the individual.

Did it work for the Bulgarians? Sure.
Will it work for you and me... It depends. Maybe for some, but I doubt it would be optimal for very many people at all.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:40 PM
PFAA wrote:
Mike, or anybody that knows: Where can I find Style's Stress Diagram?

This John Broz thing has been taking over the internets: http://www.pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=2373

(If I cant link to another board Mike tell me and i'll edit it out).

First I thought that maybe it could work because they only have the concentric part of the lifts in the competition lifts. Then I remembered that they do have front and back squats and stress is stress, concentric or not.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:40 PM
Donald Lee wrote:
It's called General Adaptation Syndrome.

Mike spelled the guy's name wrong. His name is Hans Selye. He wrote "The Stress of Life," and his GAS is often mentioned in strength training/fitness literature. I think "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" by Robert Sapolsky is now regarded as THE book on stress and adaptation though.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:41 PM
PFAA wrote:
Oh, I know what it is then. Thanks, I have read "Zebras", Sapolsky is quite the writer

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:43 PM
Donald Lee wrote:


You're right. It's all over the internet. I just found a link to that discussion on Pendlay's forum from another forum. I'd be interested in hearing more of Glenn's thoughts, since he incorporates Bulgarian training with his athletes and also has a Masters in Exercise Science. He's also a former Powerlifter, so he could probably discuss this issue from many angles.

This is some of the stuff he wrote about this in the recent past:

"

This type of training works. Lots of people do it. I have been up to 15 sessions a week before with my athletes, thats 3 per day on mon wed and fri, and two per day on tue thur and sat. In fact Donny was doing about that when he beat the defending world champion, Klokov, at the 2006 Arnold. Donny did a pretty heavy workout in the morning at that meet, when he competed in the afternoon, just to feel normal. including front squatting up to a bit over 500lbs. Thats how good of shape he was in. He had to do that just to be normal, less than that would have thrown him off.

But its not magic. Its not simply a case of work harder and you will get better, like a straight line from A to B. Case in point... Abajiev... who was Krastevs coach (Krastev was the bulgarian super who snatched 216kg and coached/taught Broz) coached Donny for almost a year. Donny worked hard, very hard, but did not improve over the lifts he had done with me a year earlier.

Sometimes when "bulgarian" training is brought up, I feel like people end up with the take home message that you just train, train, train, train when you are tired, train when you are hurt, then go back and train some more and you magically get stronger. and the more you train, and hurt, the stronger you get. This is not the case. Maybe it is the case when the cure for everything is just to take more Dianabol, I dont know. But real people do get tired, injured, etc. I am not sure about the overtraining thing. I do know that you can get in a zone, and people can do amazing things. I have watched kids make PR lifts when they limped into the gym for their 5th traihing session in 2 days, and complained that it was hard to walk up the stairs to the gym. But they started lifting and went for it and it was there.

The human body is a wonderful machine. And coaching is an art, more an art at this point than a science. We just dont know enough. Caleb was sore and tired this morning from a competition on saturday, yet he overhead squatted with a clean grip 190kg, or 419lbs. Who could have predicted that kind of lift the monday after competing? Donny did not compete, was rested, and made no memorable lifts. Who knows why? Not me for sure.

I personally think there is a fine line, a fine line you have to balance on. train enough to spur adaptation, but, not get injured, at least not too bad. Broz mentions watching every lift of his lifters and adjusting based on physical and emotional factors. This is probably the single most important thing in that whole thread that was linked in the OP. That is the art of coaching, and is why some are successful and some are not, IMO.

glenn"


"

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:45 PM
Donald Lee continued:

Mark,

Yes, the bulgarians have gotten caught using drugs. So has most every top country, and yes, so has the USA.

If you want to know a few who have trained, and thrived while totally drug free, and drug tested often, training 6 days a week, between 9 and 13 sessions per week of maximal weight attempts, let me give you a few names, I am sure other coaches can give many, many more. Donny Shankle, Trey Goodwin, Justin Brimhall, Caleb Ward, James Moser. I have many, many, many more, but these 5 popped into my head initially because they have all been national champions, represented the USA in international competitions like the world champions, Junior worlds, or pan american games, and have quite a few american records between them.

Two on this list, Donny and Justin, are United States Marines... Justin is active duty. Both have told me that the long marches they did or do in the Marines are TOUGHER than what they did in OL training, but, they adapted to both. I would be happy to supply you with contact information for them if you want to ask them yourself.

Do not believe something cant be done just because you have not seen it, or cannot do it. This particular thing is being done daily by many, many drug free athletes.

Glenn

PS... Jon North, who i didnt put on the list because he has not yet won a national championship, (although he is likely to make this years pan-am games team) just cleaned 419lbs tonight at a bodyweight of 205lbs. It was his 8th workout of the week, all maximal, and we still have tomorrow to go!"
"

Mark,

I am very familiar with the originator of the bulgarian system, Ivan Abadjieb... I have spoken to him face to face about his system and his beliefs at length, and, he coached a couple of my athletes for about 6 months, even lived with them. So his methods, beliefs, and reliance on anabolics is not news to me.

I am familiar with the Russian method. I learned the lifts from Medvedev, probably the most famous of the russian coaches and long time head coach of the russian national team. He was my first real coach during the time I was in Moscow in 1992.

I am also familiar with the physiology of adaptation, and what happens to the body when it is pushed to the edge and even too far. My masters thesis, titled "Validation of a hormone controled training plan" involved pushing 9 national level lifters right to, and some through, the overtraining boundary and measuring all sorts of things to see how they reacted, and seeing if we could use hormonal measures to find the fine edge between training as hard as possible, and training to hard.

And also for the record, none of the lifters I mentioned are using or have used anabolics... All are on the NAN program... something Bulgaria or Russia did NOT have to contend with back in the day. Ivan himself, when he was here in the USA coaching my lifters could not figure a way around the NAN program other than pay-offs, and couldnt quite understand why this wasnt possible in the USA as it had been in Bulgaria. So, if you know of a way around it, you are apparantly smarter than me, Ivan, or anyone else I know.

Now, to an example of what my lifters are doing presently...

Caleb Ward... top ranked Junior in the USA for the past two years, set 10 american records in one year his last year as a schoolage lifter and now closing in on the Junior records... who also by the way has always trained this way, ever since he was 12... has done approsimately the following last week...

Keep in mind his max snatch is 160, max clean is 202, max jerk is 200, max clean and jerk is 195.

Monday AM
snatch up to 3 doubles with 140
clean and jerk up to 3 doubles with 170

Monday PM
snatch to max, usually in training about 155, then do one or two doubles with 140kg
clean and jerk to max, usually in training about 190 or so, then do one or two doubles with 170kg or so.

back squat 5 sets of 5... this week he did it with 210kg

this is representative of Mon, Wed, and Fri, except for the squatting. Front squatting is done on Wed, and we dont squat on Friday...

Tue and Thur, there is only one workout, and it is maximum on both powersnatch and powerclean/jerk

Saturday, one workout also, maximum for a set of back squats, just attempt a new maxumum for a set of 1, 3, or 5 reps, then on to maximum clean deadlift or snatch grip deadlift, done to failure trying for a max single.

This is what Caleb is doing right now. If I were talking about Donny, it would be much the same, but you could also add in multiple maximal front squat workouts where he works up to a maximal single in extra workouts.

If I were talking about what Caleb will be doing next week, you could drop out the 5 sets of 5 back squat on Monday, and add in a while bunch, maybe 6 or 7... front squat workouts where the goal is to get to a max single for the day.

If I were talking about the hardest weeks ever... Mon Wed, and Fri, we would be working to max singles both morning and afternoon on snatrch and clean and jerk, then backing off to 5 sets of 2 with 10 or 15kg less also in each lift each workout. then max front squatting each workout... and Tue and Thur would also be to maximum, with back off sets of 2...

Given the number of athletes, not just mine but many coaches, that are doing this sort of stuff every day and having success, you just CANNOT say that it doesnt work. And success in my book is national championships, american records... places on the world or pan-am team, etc...

Oh and one more thing. I have coached Caleb his whole career, from age 12 to his present age of 19, with the exception of a 4-5 month period where he left to go to college in Northern Michigan, and was coached by someone with a different philosophy. Thought you couldnt go to max all the time... lots of periodization... higher volume with lower weights, rest weeks, gradually peaking for a meet... everything that some would say you HAVE to do... Caleb was calling me every other day *****ing and complaining... hurting from the higher reps and higher volume... knees hurt, back hurt, etc. came home after one semester.

He could do the program I described... but when he went to a more "normal" program... it killed him. why? because he is ADAPTED to working like this. He is not ADAPTED to doing hundreds of reps with submaximal weights. He has demanded that his body perform the snatch and clean and jerk first for 20 or 30 reps each with 80% to 90% weights 3 times a week as a 12 year old, to performing these lifts with 90 to 95% weights for 10 or 12 reps each 3 times a week as a 13 year old, to performing at that level for 4 sessions a week as a 14 year old... to performing with maximal weights 4 days per week as a 15 year old... to performing maximal weights 5 days a week as a 16 and 17 year old... clear up to the performance of, during some weeks, maximal weights plus backoff sets 9 times a week as a 19 year old.

If there is no derailing of the plan... before the 2012 olympic trials, he will be performing maximally 3 times a day on mon wed fri, and two times per day on tue, thur, and sat.

It is a gradual progression to this workload, it takes, in some cases, years, and I have seen many, many lifters do it and have success. Some adapt faster than Caleb. Jon North got to the same workload Caleb is under in less than 2 years in the sport... and, he recently snatched 150kg as a 94kg lifter, and should make the Pan Am team this year.

I understand that it is hard to conceptualize... maybe even hard to imagine. two experiences in my life stand out as the kind of "eye opening" experiences that have served me well when coaching.

The first was when I was in high school, and flint pipeline from Odessa, Texas came to my small home town in Kansas and started hiring locals to be laborers on a 20 mile stretch of pipeline they were contracted to build from a local refinery to a storage facility. basic laboreres would be taking home around $600 a week. Keep in mind this was in 1987 or 1988, in a small town in kansas, and i was 17 years old and my friends were working at McDonalds as their summer job, and pulling down $3.35 per hour for 20 or 30 hours a week. I was too young to get on, but determined, and I ended up with a fake drivers license, along with my friend Barry Park who has since mended his ways and is a Minister for a church near Colorado springs. We both got hired. $600 a week was great, but to get it, we were out in the 100 degree heat all day. The whistle blew at 6am, we worked till 6pm, and for much of that time, peons like us had a shovel in our hands. Barry and me were both lifting weights that summer, him for football, me for wrestling. The first week, we both skipped a couple of workouts, hell we were falling asleep the minute we walked in the door home from work at 630 or so... the second week we felt better and were getting all our evening workouts at our local YMCA but we couldnt lift anything near our old weights... but a funny thing happened the fourth week... we started making PR's again!!! I ended that summer way stronger than I began it, in spite of 12 hour a day, 6 day a week, of manual labor. I ADAPTED... and earned a bunch more money than my friends at McDonalds did...

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:46 PM
Donald Lee continued:
The second experience was about a year after my son was born, which would make it around 2002 or 2003. In 1993, married less than a week, I had bought a little crackerbox 700 or 800 square foot house in Wichita Falls, Texas. Lived in it a couple of years... then moved away for the Masters degree, then moved again for my wifes Masters degree... but kept the house and rented it out. In 1999, I moved back to WF with the wife, and moved back into the tiny house. When my son William was born, I realized the house was way too small. We looked around, but what we wanted was out of our reach. I decided to build on. I planned an addition that would double the size of the house to about 1400 square feet, and to swing it financially, I planned on building it myself. It took me a year of working evenings and weekends, but I built it. when it was done, I decided to re-roof the whole house when I shingled the addition, just so it woujld look the same. I did not have a nail gun, nor could I afford one. Over a period of 5 days, by myself, I shingled a 1400 square foot house, plus the garage. I was not skilled at this. Someone with the proper skills probably could have done it faster, but for me it was 4 days of sunlight to sundown, with a few extra hours gained with lights perched up there in the evenings... then finishing the 5th day, as I remember. I remember that my hammer hand, the right one, hurt so bad after the first day i had a hard time sleeping. the whole forearm felt as if it was swollen and aching and on fire. by the third day I hurt, but, probably in the knees more than the forearm, just from kneeling all day and hammering shingles. By the 5th day my arm felt fine. And, oddly enough, I noticed that the right forarm looked different... I measured them and noticed that the right arm was between 1/2 and 1 inch larger than the left, though they had been the same before the roofing started. So in 5 days, my arm and forearm had adapted to swinging that 22 ounce roofing hammer thousands and thousands of times a day... was not even sore anymore, and had grown significantly.

The human body is really an amazing thing... dont sell it short!

glenn"

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:46 PM
Krakistophales wrote:
I don't know much on the subject, nor have I tried the bulgarian method, so I'll try not to mouth off.

Firstly, from what I heard about the bulgarian training method, it wasn't all this nonsense that broz was talking about, but rather that you build up to a comfortable (key word) 1RM for THAT DAY, and then do several triples based on %s derived from that day's 1RM.

So, if I feel like superman and I hit a PR of 5 kgs that day for a 1RM, my triples will all be higher because of it. If I was out last night and had too much vodka, and my 1RM that day is 10kgs off my usual, so be it.

You're still getting high intensity and high volume, but it has the safety button that's based on how you're feeling that day, and not some percentages derived from the coach's guestimations.

That being said, in the video interview broz mentions something about having to fail at a lift 35 times before you get a PR, in his case a 10 kg PR. So, what's the mathematical extrapolation we can present for how prone someone is to injury at 35 max attempts before they fluke and get a PR? I'll bet the figures are astronomical, even for the almighty broz. I'm not sure if a 10kg gym PR is worth not being able to set PRs for the next 6 months to a year to recover from injury.

Anyway, that's my two cents. In all strength training, no matter what the methodology, style, whatever, we're all just manipulating two variables: volume and intensity. There are 4 ways to go about it:

High volume, low intensity

high intensity, low volume

high intensity, high volume

low intensity, low volume

It would seem to me that all the best training methods in the world employ either 1 or a combination of several of these 4 possibilities.

We each have a responsibility to find which of these is working for us RIGHT NOW, and employ these methods as far as we're able. When one is milked dry, we try another. When that one's finished, we try the third. When all 4 are milked, start combining 1 and 4, or 2 and 3, or whatever, and the gains will come. It all depends on what works for each trainee, and there is no set in stone method of training.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:47 PM
Donald Lee wrote:
I think Broz was just using that as an example, not as a rule. I haven't read what he's wrote in a while, but I recall that at least with the Back Squat, he has the athlete work up to a max single (i think) and then maybe backoff sets of 5x2 based on the TRAINING MAX for that day.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:48 PM
Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
Pendlay's explanation makes more sense than the sensationalist stuff I hear coming from Broz.Why is there all this interest surrounding so-called "Bulgarian training"? If I had to venture a guess, I'd say it has something to do with people looking for a better way to get stronger. And that's applaud-able.Naturally the next question becomes, "should I learn something applicable from this training method?" To this I would answer yes -- absolutely. The principle of specificity is highlighted in this method.Where this method loses my interest is when people try to tout it as a cure-all. You see, there are many physiological problems in training and one training method cannot solve all the problems. That is why it's best to train according to physiological principles in a methodical manner. Pendlay's post really highlighted to me the importance of long term planning in increasing the general work capacity. He didn't start them off with 15 max effort workouts a week.Take me for example. Right now, my Sympathetic Nervous System has been in overdrive -- a sign of overtraining. It is well established that if I continue to go in the manner I have gone, my SNS will become exhausted, leaving me PSNS overtrained. It CAN be overdone. If you understand that, and take steps to mitigate the risks, then you have another "rifle" in your arsenal.But as I said, it can't be a cure all. If you need to increase muscular cross section in order to improve your muscle's force potential, you must train specifically to elicit that response.If someone wanted to train in this manner for Powerlifting, I know it can be done. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I've been watching Eric Talmant do it. I personally don't feel that it's optimal for everyone, but it can be a good idea sometimes IF it is applied correctly. "Correctly" means proper monitoring of the athlete and knowing when to back off.

Attachments
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RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:49 PM
PFAA wrote:
Is Eric logging his training anywhere?

And the thing is the internet seems to be dominated by trends.Someone gets a great athelete using a method and then everybody jumps in that bandwagon. See WSBB. Doesn't make sense for anyone except those who lift AT WSBB and use multiply, but even raw lifters where doing it.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:49 PM
Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
He is not logging his training anywhere publicly at the moment. I'll see if I can get a little more info out there on his stuff if there's interest.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:50 PM
PFAA wrote:
Ok, I'm deffinitly curious, mainly because he was head deep into Sheiko and I wanted to know why he changed up.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:51 PM
Krakistophales wrote:
This is why you have to be careful whenever someone starts telling you that "x is the gospel, and y and z don't mean shit".

The problem with that is that x will only solve your x related strength problems, whereas y and z can solve the y and z problems. If you try to fit x into y's keyhole, you'll find yourself going nowhere fast, and sometimes even injured or overtrained.

For myself, I couldn't possibly subscribe to the overtraining prone nonsense that broz is spewing. Maybe it works for high school kids who only play sports or only lift weights, but I have a full-time job where I have to carry between 50 and 100 lbs of furniture up and down 2 flights of stairs BEFORE I get to the actual physical labor. Then, once I run around all night, I get to lug the furniture again, to set up for the next day.

With my work requiring that kind of energy output, I can't afford to be sore, or overtrained, or tired beyond recognition, especially since I lift before I go to work. I'm sure I'm not the only lifter with a physically intense job, so that's just one of several reasons why you have to shop around and find what's best for you at the moment. The fact that pat mendez is a star pupil of this method doesn't tell you or me anything, other than it works for him. The best thing one can do is try it out for yourself, see if it works. If it doesn't, figure out why, scrap it, and find another type of cycle.

Like I said, only 4 dimensions can ever be applied into strength training. It would seem that the bulgarian method is a high volume/high intensity type. That's all well and good, but experience has taught me that you can only follow that kind of cycle for a small period of time, usually 4 to 6 weeks, before you burn yourself out entirely.

Sure, you can train yourself to sustain those periods longer and recover from them faster, but everything is in moderation, and it takes years of preparation to be able to handle those kinds of intensities for an extended period of time. People have to be smart about their lifting, and not blindly follow whatever new system comes out just because lifter X has had success with it.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:51 PM
gunterdemey wrote:
This is a good article,describes pretty well what the Abadjiev method is.
To help with understanding this method ,i should add the following:

1) In a technical event,even if the body has reached muscular and nervous exhaustion as it can be measured by a variety of ways,there's still the value of doing the movement for your maximum that day.
So even if a method such as TRAC tells you you're about to have a heart attack,in the long run doing 10 sets of snatches going to your day's max will help you with the snatch,as crazy as this sounds...

2)This system was developed as a national system,to produce as many medals as possible.
It was NOT made to make the best out of every trainee.10 4th places mean nothing,one bronze medal is a huge success.
This wasn't meant to be a mass training system but an elitist one.

The athletes don't hire the coach,they come to the coach to see if they can be top athletes,not to improve fitness-if they can't be top level athletes they're thrown out of the lifting room and aren't allowed back.
You have to see the system in its larger political,ethical and cultural context-in communist countries there was NO hobby sport,sports was a profession,you had to be top or find another job.
Hobby sports like bodybuilding were ridiculed and mostly still are today as they were considered the home of the failures of all other professional sports.It was considered fooling around like the infants do in the playground.

3)Although this system did have many failures and injuries,the screening method that was used to determine the talented, although cruel, was correct as success in every sport is determined by all the qualities needed to finish these training camps-great recovery,superb technical adaptation,good performance ,and high result to effort ratio.
The political/ethical/cultural context may have failed some athletes but they succeeded to be top athletes under the same system or under other training systems because their talent was recognized successfully.
Example : Under this system but not in Bulgaria ,it has produced the only 4, 3gold medal winners in Olympics (Dimas,Kakhiashvilli,Suleymanoglou,Mutlu) and countless single gold Olympics winners and 2 timers like Rezazadeh of Iran.
Perhaps the results were better outside of Bulgaria because there were more resources and better conditions for performance.
Others,in Bulgaria training under a different system like Boevski also reached the top because the screening method was correct.

This is no method for self improvement of anyone and i doubt that it could be modified to accomodate the less gifted.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:52 PM
darius wrote:
Really interesting topic! Broz at the moment seems to be the hottest thing going on the internet. That is no doubt because his star pupil Mendes is heaving some impressive poundage. I think you have to look at these points though-

1)His system (Bulgarian) is suited to more genetically gifted individuals

2)O Lifting is very different from PL-the eccentric portion is missing in O-lifts which is a major difference

3) A guy like Mendes is probably having a good dose of 'adaptogens'-which help.

4)The human body IS incredible BUT does have limits. I dont think I've ever seen a powerlifter max out or squat every day. I'm sure its been tried and wasnt very successful.

5)Broz is right in a sense that alot of American lifters dont know how to train. He pointed out that only 2 WR totals are held by Americans in the IPF(the most international and credible PL fed). Those 2 are Siders and Bridges and Siders trains crazy volume.

6) Mendes is training full time-all the time. I think he is sponsored-doesnt have to work, no stresses etc. He can train with a clear head with no distractions. I bet if someone like our own Mike T could do that he'd be upto a 900lb deadlift within a year-easy.

7) I dont see lifters who train like this have any real longevity. You either burn out mentally or physically. If you look at the squats they do they seem to be pretty harsh on the knees. I heard that Broz and his lifters might be doing a raw PL meet in the future. That would be cool to watch.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:52 PM
darius wrote:
Also Mendes is the first American lifter in ages who actually looks like a genuine medal prospect. Previous American O lifters have done jackshit in decades. Its no wonder there's a huge buzz surrounding him and his coach's training methods.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:53 PM
gunterdemey wrote:
With all due respect Broz and Mendez' supposed greatness is restricted to youtube only.

With a 200k snatch in training and a 210k clean and jerk because of wrist problems he hardly is a major medal candidate at least for now.I remember in 96 Barnett was quite a good lifter as was Hamman afterwards-please don't diss acomplished lifters so easily because someone might appear with good gym lifts under obvious heavy "adaptogen" use.If Mendez is sponsored then it's more than obvious that all this hype is geared towards keeping his sponsors and giving back to them via publicity so there's a direct interest on maintaining this hype.My opinion is that this hype will end the very moment he steps on an international platform under tested conditions... Let' give credit where credit is due...

As for the system Broz uses it obviously has great Bulgarian method inluences but it looks it's much more permanent in the way stress is posed on the lifters-the Abadjiev system was a system of high intensity periods but of brief duration,not year round in order to avoid irreversible exhaustion and injury. To put it in the terms he uses himself in the article posted here,the wolf has to rest and eat and sleep sometime,he cannot run and chase rabits all day long all year long...

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:54 PM
Derek Binford wrote:
For anyone who is interested I have experimented with some quasi-bulgarian style training over the last month with regards to raw powerlifting. Here is the exercise pull that I used, only 4 lifts..

raw back squat - belt only
raw bench press - touch and go
raw bench press - paused
conventional deadlift - belt only

The first two weeks I started off like this...

Monday
back squat - daily max, back down to 80-90% of daily max for doubles and triples
raw bench - daily max, back down to 80-90% of daily max for doubles and triples
conventional deadlift - 80-90% for doubles and triples, no daily max

Wednesday
back squat - daily max, thats it, no added volume
paused bench - daily max, back down to 80-90% of daily max for doubles and triples
conventional deadlift - daily max, no added volume

Friday
back squat - daily max, back down to 80-90% of daily max for doubles and triples
raw bench - daily max, back down to 80-90% of daily max for doubles and triples
conventional deadlift - 80-90% for doubles and triples, no daily max

So basically I was doing each lift 3 x week, 3 weekly maxes on squats, 3 weekly maxes on bench, and 1 weekly max on deadlift. 3 sessions of added volume for bench, 2 sessions of added volume for squat and deadlift. I did this for the first week and a half.

The first week I hit 5lb PRs on squat, paused bench, and deadlift. The second week I hit 5lb PR's on squat and paused bench, but my deadlift almost felt as if it had went down 50lbs and even 80-85% felt very heavy, my back was very tight and achy. So I have not deadlifted since last wednesday and my back is feeling much better. I will deadlift tomorrow but not to a max. I have always been a guy that says you can deadlift 3 x week if you want, but I dont know if that is the case of one of those days is maxing, and I also don't know that maxing on deadlift weekly is the best training strategy for deadlift, even though it has proved well for squat and bench.

Here are my improvements for this 3 week training block(so far, still have two training days left)...

back squat - 430 to 445 - 15lbs
paused bench - 315 to 325 - 10lbs (only two training sessions of paused bench, but will do it again tomorrow)
conventional deadlift - 545 to 550 - 5lbs
raw bench - touch and go - 340 is my best a few weeks ago - 335 is my best this training cycle

This is very good gains for me on the squat and also on the paused bench. I only paused benched once a week due to it sometimes giving my left shoulder and pec some problems. My body weight stayed the same during the block about 182-183lbs. So to me this tells me that the program worked VERY well for squat and very good for the paused bench. But not as good for the touch and go bench and deadlift. So squat training will stay the same and bench training will change slightly.

I believe that my touch and go bench is just enough higher than my paused bench to have helped my lockout for the pause bench. So this next training block I will have on session of touch and go raw bench, one session of paused bench, and one session of reverse light band press. Hopefully the added lockout will help my touch and go bench and also in turn help my paused bench. And volume will also be higher for bench press this time.

Deadlift has always been my best lift and as long as i've deadlifted conventional style my conventional went up. When i trained it gear sometimes I flopped back and forth between conventional and sumo because I could pull more sumo in a suit, and didnt make as much progress on conventional. So for now I will not be maxing on deadlift and I will just be pulling once a week on wednesdays. I will be staying between staying in the 2-5 rep range for more volume. My best pulls have always been after a block of high volume work and once I pulled a PR I was pretty much done for a while on the deadlift.

Overall i'm very please with my results but have yet to determine whether this could be a training strategy for the long term. But I will definately stay with it for as long as I feel I'm making gains.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:54 PM
Wilmer wrote:
Wow Pat Mendez Trains 12 times a week??? He tains monday thru friday 8 am and 3 pm, then sat and sunday at 10 am.Wow he haves alot of time!! but he was doing monday, wednesday, friday At 8 am , 2:30 pm , 7:30 pm! when he first started. He said it took him a year and a half to adapt!! wow crazy right...Thats impressive!!

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:55 PM
Derek Binford wrote:
Yeah he has lots of time, because thats all he does is lift. He's as close as it gets to a professional lifter in the United States.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:56 PM
Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
I would venture a guess that the reason this has worked for some of your lifts but not others is that each lift has it's own force deficiency problem. The max effort work probably addressed the force deficiency in some lifts, but not others. I'd propose that by diagnosing your deficiencies, you could custom build training programs tailored to each lift.

I'm still working on the details for this, so I'm not to the point that I'm ready to teach it. But we are practicing it on the custom training athletes and they are seeing positive results from it.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:56 PM
Derek Binford wrote:
Mike,

Sounds like an interesting topic there, what exactly do you mean by force deficiency? And its interesting you bring up the idea of force production because when my deadlift is feeling "overtrained" which usually happens after I hit a PR or when I've been pulling lots of heavy near max singles. But it actually feels like I can't produce force quickly enough, it feels like it literaly takes like 2 seconds for the bar to break the ground. Then after I drop the intensity down and perform more volume that I can lift at a decent speed my ability to produce force quickly off the ground seems to get better.

Is this kind of what you are talking about?

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:57 PM
jwzrd wrote:
Derek,

I know you asked Mike but I think that's a different thing happening. All traning leads to a fibre conversion from 2X (fast twitch explosive) to 2A (fast twitch regular). Both types are about as strong but 2X can generate about twice as much power. Power is not the same thing as strength. So after a hard traning cycle when you feel slow and sort of weak, you're basically deficient in 2X fibres. The only way to reverse that is to rest either completely (which produces the fastest result but with the obvious drawbacks) or to train a lot less and lighter. Good old deload.

II think force deficiency is a different subject though (but we'll just have to wait and see what Mike wants to say on that). I've thought about this alot myself though and I've come to the conclusion that some exercises just don't produce efficient training stimuli for some people. It just wears them down. I think the deadlift is like that for most people. If you are like that then regular deadlift is not going to do much for you in your template in the muscle-building sense but still has its place on a regular basis for you to develop good skill in it (so to speak). But it might be that SSB squats, frontsquats or whatever trains your deadlift a lot more.

My personal experience in this that regular benchpressing just didn't do anything for me several years back. Just an awkward movement. Deadlifting on the other hand just worked and if I did it, I improved. Squatting was somewhere in between. Lately however, as I've gotten more proficient in the benchpress, I can press a lot more often, more volume and a lot heavier (even all of the above at the same time) and still make good improvements. This ties in to the thread subject. If you have a good selection of very specific exercises that just totally work for you, then I think you could persue them with very heavy weights and a high frequency and make astronomic gains.

I also think that we should all strive after adaptations in our bodies towards "adding" these proficiencies because it makes it possible to train at a higher skill-level producing greater gains. Even for people that are really really strong already.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:57 PM
gunterdemey wrote:
I believe you haven't understood well what the Bulgarian system is all about.This looks nothing like the system Abadjiev developed.

The one basic principle is to always max on the competition movement for one repetition and then do one assistant movement for doubles or triples.
The other just as basic principle is to divide daily volume into parts ,so that for one competitive movement there is one training session and for the next competitive movement of the day,you train on another session (one competition movement-one session).
There is no "no daily max",no doubles or triples for the competition movement,no rep work,no percentages...if you do the competition movement,you max...if you do assistance you don't max,ever.

So,Monday would look like this ,assuming you train for powerlifting and the competition movements are the squat/bench/deadlift:

Monday:

Training session 1:
Back squat :to daily max,going up through 8-10 sets,max out,stay with max for 5-8 sets (of 1rep)
Good morning or front squat :6 sets of 2.

rest 1 hour.

Training session 2 :

Bench press: max out for the day through 8-10 sets,stay with the max for 6-8 sets.
Wide or close grip bench press: 6-8 sets of 2.

rest for 1 hour.


Training session 3 :

Deadlift : max out through 8-10 sets ,stay with max for 6-8 sets.
Stiff legged deadlifts,sumo deadlifts of good mornings :6 sets of 2.

End of day 1.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:58 PM
Wilmer wrote:
Hey gunterdemey I dont know but that sounds FUN AND Interesting to see what happens!! But to do that training you will have to perform every powerlift movement correctly? With bad form you wont see results??

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:58 PM
Derek Binford wrote:
I realize that this is not an exact of the Bulgarian system however I do understand the Bulgarian system quite well and have read everything that I can find on it and I think you are probably a little bit confused about it.

The Bulgarians most definately did doubles with the competition movement and Abadjiev believed in very little "assistance work" for the lifts other than squatting. In fact they only used six lifts, power snatch, power clean, snatch, clean & jerk, front squat, and back squat. They maxed daily on each lift and then often performed down sets of more singles and doubles.

And while I do understand that with the Bulgarian system they trained multiple times a day, however being that I'm a real person with other priorities this is no conducive to me. Also they may have taken multiple attempts with max weights for weightlifting, this is no possible in powerlifting. If you daily max is a true daily max, you cannot repeat that weight for 5-8 total sets. That is the reason for the down sets, to get more volume, as I said the Bulgarians often did down sets as well moving up and down in weight.

Here is a link that shows that they did doubles http://www.owresource.com/training/images/bulgarian.jpg , not many, but they did do them. They also went up and down in weight with several max attempts.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:59 PM
gunterdemey wrote:
Please understand i have shared training halls with Bulgarian weightlifters in the past and many other weightlifters training under Bulgarian coaches directions.For me this system isn't a picture on a website.

I do realize this system is impossible for a non professional to follow,but this is what this system is about-it was developed to be followed by professionals...so the changes to be made in order for a normal person to follow it should be so vast that the system is destroyed.

I don't know how reading about the Bulgarian system has changed your programmes but what you have outlied a Bulgarian system is not.

I have never seen a lifter max out on anything like the squat or front squat -in fact i had seen many times coaches not letting the athletes put more weight on the bar when going for triples when the last set was quite easy.

This is a fundamental difference with the Russian system,the Russians often had 360 and 400k squats and maxed squatting till their eyes bled,Bulgarians only did this with the competition movements of close to these exercises (like power snatch and clean).





PS Please,accept my apologies is i seem too harsh on my comments,i only mean to be objective,not harsh.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 01:59 PM
Derek Binford wrote:
I get your points and accept the apology although one was not needed. However I still don't understand how what I have posted is not at least a slight representation of how a bulgarian program would look for the non-professional "powerlifter" and I highlight "powerlifter" because thats what I am not a weight lifter.

It makes no sense to me to perform the majority of your volume with as assistance movement like front squat or goodmorning when your goal is to improve the back squat, not the front squat or goodmorning. One of the things that it seems we agree on is that the bulgarians didnt just max, but they performed other volume as well, like lots of doubles in your examples your posted. But to me performing the majority of your volume on assistance movements completely violates the SAID principle that Abadjiev seems so married to? If you want to improve your back squat, you back squat, if you want to improve you clean and jerk, you clean and jerk, etc.

And while I understand how you may have shared training halls with the bulgarians and I realize that you can't believe anything that you have read on the internet, however not all of the information I have read is from the internet, but also from books such as the weightlifting encyclopedia, and some other reputable sources. But the idea of performing a bunch of volume on an assistance movement is completely contrary to EVERYTHING that I have read, how can it be possible that is completely contrary to everything that I have read? Are you saying all the information out there about the bulgarian system is wrong?

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 02:00 PM
gunterdemey wrote:
1) How is the majority of volume performed on assistance exercises ? For the squat you perform 18 sets and for the front squat only 6.For the squat you perform a set every 2-4 minutes and for assistance you perform all 6 within 10-15. Any way you look at it,there's no way for anyone to say the main work on time,volume or intensity is not on the main lifts.



2)Most internet information is pure speculation or bad information,yes.How can you expect to find a programme a single person developed on the internet...You could get a sample workout or two but what comes next is only in his mind.Many times he would surpsise even his lifters for years.

If it was so easy of a programme to copy and apply,why did the Turkish federation pay him 1 million dollars in 1990 or so for him to go to Turkey and train Suleymanoglou and develop what now is a great weightlifting team ?



3)If the main principles are to always max on competition movement/never max on assistance/one session per competition movement and you follow none of the above,how is your programme influenced by the Bulgarian system ? You should at least perform one movement per day,go to max and then do one assistance movement,then come back the next day and do the same for another movement and so on for as many days per week as you can...up to six days per week.

RTSAdmin
02-04-2013, 02:00 PM
Donald Lee wrote:
Avg Broz Gym just had two lifters fail drug tests:

http://www.pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=6601