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bballer99
12-07-2014, 11:31 AM
What do you guys think of a routine like Westside but like this:

2 bench days, one repetition effort for volume (5x5) and one max effort for intensity (3RM)

2 "leg" days, one with max effort squat (3RM) and repetition effort deads (3x8) and the other with max effort deads (3RM) with repetition effort squats (3x5-8)

I feel it would be like a Texas Method split with westside principles. Thoughts?

chris_ottawa
12-07-2014, 08:23 PM
548

chris_ottawa
12-07-2014, 08:25 PM
Quote:

- History in the sport

Haven't competed yet, have been training for about 6 months, but I've been a bit of a program hopper.

bballer99
12-07-2014, 09:36 PM
All I asked was for a breakdown of the program I am doing and pros/cons with it.

I would assume people are good at that on this forum and not insulting. Right?

I know I've been a program hopper. I know that I need to get my chit together and just do a routine I whole-heartedly believe in. I know that this one is it. This past week was the first time I've enjoyed training in a while, and I know I can stick to this one and make massive gains.

Is it wrong for anyone to try to figure this stuff out for themselves?

ChadHydro
12-07-2014, 09:57 PM
Yeah I agree. That's kind of mean, Chris. Bballer, if you enjoy the program and its working I'd say stick with it.

bballer99
12-07-2014, 10:19 PM
He is justified though. I did say I was a program hopper and then hopped again onto another routine.

bradbanag
12-08-2014, 12:26 AM
Are going to rotate exercise variations exercise variations? because if you don't you are not going to sustain progress

DallasLynx
12-08-2014, 07:57 AM
I used west side inspired training for several years. If you want to go that route I suggest buying the training manual Dave Tate wrote a few years back. I've read all of Lou's stuff and it is very difficult to understand. Dave more or less takes Lou's message and makes it legible.

That said, if you have an idea you believe in go to the gym and test it. Best way to learn in my opinion. Worst that could happen is you spend time training and learn something.

bballer99
12-08-2014, 08:06 AM
Yes. They will more often that not be specific lifts, or lifts very similar to the competition movement.

I usually have one supplement movement after the main lift (e.i., military after bench) as a repetition effort movement (except military, that is max effort after repetition bench)

I don't know how to incorporate special exercises however. The original author of this routine reccommended special movements for bench at the end of the bench sessions, such as floor press and 2 board press, but only if you were benching more than 250. I'm sure I can get away without using special exercises yet.

j2917
12-08-2014, 08:46 AM
All I asked was for a breakdown of the program I am doing and pros/cons with it.

I would assume people are good at that on this forum and not insulting. Right?

I know I've been a program hopper. I know that I need to get my chit together and just do a routine I whole-heartedly believe in. I know that this one is it. This past week was the first time I've enjoyed training in a while, and I know I can stick to this one and make massive gains.

Is it wrong for anyone to try to figure this stuff out for themselves?

Some thoughts from a fellow self-proclaimed program hopper:

-Start narrowing in on your goals. I started with "get in shape", moved to "get stronger", and have most recently come to "increase the big 3" because I realized I want to compete in powerlifting. Naturally I hopped around programs as my goals changed. But as your goals narrow, your program hopping will (hopefully) be less extreme.

-Experimenting is not the same as program hopping. Don't be afraid to test, adjust, and tweak, but do so thoughtfully and slowly. Avoid extreme changes if you can. Unless you're squatting on an exercise ball. Change that right away. :)

-You have to wade through a lot of noise if you're getting all your advice online, but find people you trust and listen to what they say. In other words, learn from other people's mistakes before making changes to your programming. Some people just parrot what others are saying, others have valid reasons and explain why they believe what they believe. Gravitate toward the latter and soak it in.

bballer99
12-08-2014, 08:53 AM
Thanks man

chris_ottawa
12-08-2014, 09:03 AM
I apologize if I seemed mean, the message I was trying to get across is to just do something and stick with it. About the picture, I just couldn't help myself. I laugh every time I see that.

As a beginner you should concentrate on the main lifts, people who have success with Westside are usually exerienced lifters who have good technique so they can get away with more work on variations. Also, they are mostly multi-ply lifters. There was an article on EliteFTS recently that laid out the whole conjugate system, it was re-posted from a few years back. One of the commenters asked Dave Tate why he gives away all this info for free, they said there was more there than in Louie's book of methods. Dave basically said that he does it for the love of powerlifting more than for money and wants to help people out just like people helped him in the past. If you want to learn about the conjugate method then I suggest reading that article.

But whatever you do, stick with it until you see results. You can always make adjustments as you go, but jumping from one program to another is a shortcut to nowhere.

bballer99
12-08-2014, 01:04 PM
No problem chris. I feel that for the most part, I have solidified my technique on the main lifts, now all I have to do is build the strength/mass needed to be successful in this sport. The other routines I've done didn't allow that, or at least not immediately for a novice. I feel that too many routines that de-emphasize accessory work like rows and curls and ghrs just don't allow individuality in a routine, which is something I've been seeking and found with westside.

Also, you mind posting a link to that article, or something I should google to find it?

chris_ottawa
12-08-2014, 02:27 PM
No problem chris. I feel that for the most part, I have solidified my technique on the main lifts, now all I have to do is build the strength/mass needed to be successful in this sport. The other routines I've done didn't allow that, or at least not immediately for a novice. I feel that too many routines that de-emphasize accessory work like rows and curls and ghrs just don't allow individuality in a routine, which is something I've been seeking and found with westside.

Also, you mind posting a link to that article, or something I should google to find it?
Got to http://elitefts.net and look at some of the recent articles on the main page, I don't remember the name but it was written by Dave Tate. If it's not on the main page then just search through Dave's articles, you will find it eventually. I have never read Louie's book but from what I heard it's pretty confusing with a lot of contradictions (not my words or opinion, just what I have heard), Dave's article is also free so that's another bonus.

About your program, realize that you are planning to do 2 lower body max effort days each week. It might be better to alternate between squat and deadlift from week to week, do a variation of the other exercise after but not ME work. Then comp. squat/deadlift for reps another day instead of speed work. Remember also, lower level lifters are normally supposed to do the same ME variation for 3 weeks before switching. Personally, I wouldn't recommend ME good mornings, but obviously others disagree.

There is a guy on this forum, "xolix", who does something like that, he says he got the idea from Mike's "learning to grind" article. He is also a German national record holder and is going to IPF nationals, so he would be a good guy to get some advice from.

Individuality is good, but some exercises will get you nowhere as a powerlifter. If it isn't for a specific reason (carryover to main lifts, injury prevention/health, etc.) then there is a good chance it is useless. Some people (Dave and Louie) swear by GHR's, Mike says they are basically useless. I can't tell you because I have never really done them (only on a lat pulldown bench with a bench in front for my knees - the hardest exercise ever) but I don't think curls are worth doing. It won't hurt to do a few here and there, but concentrate on the main lifts. Bodybuilders build massive biceps, powerlifters lift heavy weights. Read this: http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2014/01/23/raw-powerlifting-without-fluff/

To be honest, I never follow anybody word for word. Just find something that works, adjust things as you go, and when it stops working either fix it or switch to something else.

chris_ottawa
12-08-2014, 02:27 PM
No max effort bosu ball squats!

j2917
12-08-2014, 02:44 PM
No max effort bosu ball squats!

Unless, of course, you have a competent spotter... as shown in the pic...

j2917
12-08-2014, 03:04 PM
What do you guys think of a routine like Westside but like this:

2 bench days, one repetition effort for volume (5x5) and one max effort for intensity (3RM)

2 "leg" days, one with max effort squat (3RM) and repetition effort deads (3x8) and the other with max effort deads (3RM) with repetition effort squats (3x5-8)

I feel it would be like a Texas Method split with westside principles. Thoughts?

So, have you given more long term thought to this-- i.e., how will you progress weight/manage volume, etc., or how you might incorporate some of the RTS principles (assuming you plan to since you posted it here in these forums...)? I've found that the more details I write down and work out before hand, the more success I have in evaluating whether what I'm doing is successful. If I write out a plan that looks good on paper then get under the bar and realize, "Holy crap, what was I thinking," I want to be able to make notes as to what and why it was wrong and see what variables need tweaking to set it right. If I just keep it all in my head, I just get frustrated and scrap it all and look for the next cookie cutter program. You don't want to go down that road. Again, this is one not-even-close-to-elite-level program hopper to another.... As has been said so often before, "failing to plan is planning to fail." If "Set a PR each workout" (i.e. 3RM for max effort days) is your plan, it may work for a little while, and maybe this is an old, started-too-late-in-life man talking to an energetic young guy who will be setting 3RMs every week for the next year, but you may want to evaluate a little more closely how exactly you plan to add weight to the bar and how often. Also, your 5x5 days... are you talking about linear 5x5 progression here? If so, pretty soon your repetition effort day is going to be a max effort day and you should have a plan for when that inevitably happens.

bballer99
12-08-2014, 06:13 PM
More thinking? Jeez.

Okay, so I wanna try to autoregulate the 5x5 day. Essentially, I want this to be like a heavy repetition work day to increase specificity between RE Bench and ME Bench. I want to linear progress it, but I also want it to work as a "strength through volume" thing, with ME day displaying the strength gained. Kind of like texas method. I've already rated the RPEs for my RE bench session today.

My plan is to keep doing 3rm until I can't progress them anymore. Then do that with 2rm, then 1rm. Then start doing something similar to a true westside routine.

Also, I do 2 ME days for lower body because I can. Literally, because I can. I'm still a little novice chasing that 1000lb total.. (most of you guys bench my deadlift for reps probably). Also I find it works better for me if I dedicate one day to heavy squats and rep deads and another day for heavy deadlifts and rep squats. I feel I could be shortchanged by not progressing both in the same week while a novice. Eventually, this will stop working, so I'll have to move onto something similar to a true westside routine. But for now, 2 me lowers works well.

Anything else I missed?

bballer99
12-08-2014, 06:21 PM
Also, here is the original routine/template:

Bench Gains in Westside (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=2754251)

The tweaks I made were switching the ME squat and deadlift day order, doing dumbbell lunges instead of shrugs, and doing myo reps with the pullups. Little else is different in what I am currently doing.

bballer99
12-09-2014, 06:38 PM
Bump for activity

j2917
12-09-2014, 10:46 PM
Since you bumped... just saw this video by Izzy. :cool: Listen all the way to the end. I think Chris will approve. "Stick to the plan, execute the plan, evaluate the results of the plan, repeat."


http://youtu.be/8VKunto03_U

bballer99
12-09-2014, 11:11 PM
Yea, I saw that a bit before you posted it. This is exactly what I planned on doing.

However, I am trying to continue the thread so I can stretch this short term plan into a bit longer term plan with help from others. I responded to the issues you presented on the page before this one.

bballer99
12-10-2014, 12:37 PM
Gonna outline my program for y'all

Monday: Repetition Effort Bench (Volume Day)
1. Bench Variant: 5x5 (this is the same movement as ME Bench)
2. Row Variant: 5x5 (this will usually be some kind of chest supported row)
3. Overhead Variant: Work up to 5RM, then 3x8 @80% 5RM
4. Pull-ups (myo-reps): 6-10 + 2-3x

Tuesday: Max Effort Squat
1. Squat Variant: Work up to 3RM, then 3x5 @80% 3RM
2. Deadlift Supplement: 3x8
3. Single Leg Movement: 3x8 (also doubles as a loaded carry if i use heavy dumbbells)
4. Posterior Chain Movement: 3x8 (back extensions or similar)

Thursday: Max Effort Bench (Intensity Day)
1. Bench Variant: Work up to 3RM, then 3x5 @80% 3RM
2. Row Variant: Work up to 5-8RM, then 3x8-10 @80% 5-8RM (this will usually be some kind of chest supported row)
3. Bench Supplement: 3-4x6-10 (usually an incline press)
4. Pull-ups (myo-reps): 6-10 + 2-3x

Friday: Max Effort Deadlift
1. Deadlift Variant: Work up to 3RM, then 3x5 @80% 3RM
2. Squat Supplement: 3x5-8
3. Single Leg Movement: 3x8 (also doubles as a loaded carry if i use heavy dumbbells)
4. Posterior Chain Movement: 3x8 (back extensions or similar)

Progression:
Add 5lbs to every Max Effort S/B/D (bench progress twice in one week: on volume day by 2.5lbs, and another 2.5lbs on ME day = 5lbs)
Rows progress at the same rate as bench
Overhead progresses by 2.5-5lbs every RE Bench day

Accessory/Supplemental lifts are progressed by increasing the amount of volume done, usually by doing more work in a shorter amount of time via reduced rest, eventually the rest will become so short that it'll feel like one big set, so then I'll up the weight appropriately (I might change this to density training if someone can explain this/i figure it out). Single leg movement progresses twice as slow. Pull-ups add 10lbs once I can do 10 reps in the activation set at the current weight.

chris_ottawa
12-10-2014, 01:55 PM
Since you bumped... just saw this video by Izzy. :cool: Listen all the way to the end. I think Chris will approve. "Stick to the plan, execute the plan, evaluate the results of the plan, repeat."


http://youtu.be/8VKunto03_U

I agree with 90% of what he's saying. My main issue is that if you realize that something isn't working for you as you go along then why shouldn't you change it? Just because you wrote it down doesn't mean you have to do it, but you should definitely keep the overall theme of your program the same. I think he's taking this a bit too far. If I don't like the way something looks in next week's program then I will change it, but I'm not going to throw the whole plan out the window unless I know it's not going to work. Overall, it's good advice for beginners because they can make gains "linear progression-style", but suppose you have been doing a 5x5 program and have a 3-4 month plan as Izzy advises. If you can't make any progress after another 2 months then why would you not change it? To quote Eric Talmant: "Find a program that works, milk it for all it's worth, and then move onto something else". Don't let time be the deciding factor, but if you are going nowhere after a few months then obviously thing are not working.

The other thing is that in bballer's case, a 3-4 month plan is not going to work if he is going to be doing variations of the main lifts for ME work. I have never used the conjugate system myself and I can't say whether or not it's appropriate for someone at his level (I'm sure Louie would say it is) but you can't plan that far ahead with that kind of system. You can keep the same template, but you would have to choose exercises that target your weaknesses. At a lower level your strengths and weaknesses can change fast.

My advice: if you want to use this program then do the main lifts at least once a week, if not for the ME variation then as a supplement. You need to practice technique, starting out with nothing but variations of the main lifts will "make you a "jack of all trades, master of none".

chris_ottawa
12-10-2014, 02:04 PM
Gonna outline my program for y'all

Monday: Repetition Effort Bench (Volume Day)
1. Bench Variant: 5x5 (this is the same movement as ME Bench)
2. Row Variant: 5x5 (this will usually be some kind of chest supported row)
3. Overhead Variant: Work up to 5RM, then 3x8 @80% 5RM
4. Pull-ups (myo-reps): 6-10 + 2-3x

Tuesday: Max Effort Squat
1. Squat Variant: Work up to 3RM, then 3x5 @80% 3RM
2. Deadlift Supplement: 3x8
3. Single Leg Movement: 3x8 (also doubles as a loaded carry if i use heavy dumbbells)
4. Posterior Chain Movement: 3x8 (back extensions or similar)

Thursday: Max Effort Bench (Intensity Day)
1. Bench Variant: Work up to 3RM, then 3x5 @80% 3RM
2. Row Variant: Work up to 5-8RM, then 3x8-10 @80% 5-8RM (this will usually be some kind of chest supported row)
3. Bench Supplement: 3-4x6-10 (usually an incline press)
4. Pull-ups (myo-reps): 6-10 + 2-3x

Friday: Max Effort Deadlift
1. Deadlift Variant: Work up to 3RM, then 3x5 @80% 3RM
2. Squat Supplement: 3x5-8
3. Single Leg Movement: 3x8 (also doubles as a loaded carry if i use heavy dumbbells)
4. Posterior Chain Movement: 3x8 (back extensions or similar)

Progression:
Add 5lbs to every Max Effort S/B/D (bench progress twice in one week: on volume day by 2.5lbs, and another 2.5lbs on ME day = 5lbs)
Rows progress at the same rate as bench
Overhead progresses by 2.5-5lbs every RE Bench day

Accessory/Supplemental lifts are progressed by increasing the amount of volume done, usually by doing more work in a shorter amount of time via reduced rest, eventually the rest will become so short that it'll feel like one big set, so then I'll up the weight appropriately (I might change this to density training if someone can explain this/i figure it out). Single leg movement progresses twice as slow. Pull-ups add 10lbs once I can do 10 reps in the activation set at the current weight.

re: myo reps:

Borge Faberli, the guy who invented them, said in an article that he doesn't recommend them for powerlifters because they are too taxing on the nervous system. He says if you want to use them then definitely cut them out a few weeks/months before a competition. Density training is basically the same thing. It looks like at least a few people of this site use density training for lats & abs, so that can work, but I wouldn't advise using them on much else. Borge specifically warns about using them on squats, deadlifts, and barbell rows because your back will fatigue faster than the other muscles involved. Use google if you want to see the article.

Just keep that in mind.

bballer99
12-10-2014, 02:05 PM
My advice: if you want to use this program then do the main lifts at least once a week, if not for the ME variation then as a supplement. You need to practice technique, starting out with nothing but variations of the main lifts will "make you a "jack of all trades, master of none".

This is exactly what I planned to do. Also, if I used a variation for max effort, then I would use the competition lift during the back off sets.

Basically, if I do Close Grip Bench as my ME Bench:
Close Grip Bench Work up to 135x3
Standard Grip Bench Back off with 108x5x3 (80% of the top set for 3x5)

bballer99
12-10-2014, 02:10 PM
re: myo reps:

Borge Faberli, the guy who invented them, said in an article that he doesn't recommend them for powerlifters because they are too taxing on the nervous system. He says if you want to use them then definitely cut them out a few weeks/months before a competition. Density training is basically the same thing. It looks like at least a few people of this site use density training for lats & abs, so that can work, but I wouldn't advise using them on much else. Borge specifically warns about using them on squats, deadlifts, and barbell rows because your back will fatigue faster than the other muscles involved. Use google if you want to see the article.

Just keep that in mind.

Okay, so what if I do density training for the single leg movement (an article i found for this said you can do density training alternating one leg with the other), and myo reps for the pullups? I'm also not competing until summer comes.

chris_ottawa
12-10-2014, 02:16 PM
This is exactly what I planned to do. Also, if I used a variation for max effort, then I would use the competition lift during the back off sets.

Basically, if I do Close Grip Bench as my ME Bench:
Close Grip Bench 135x3
Standard Grip Bench 105x5x3 (80% of the top set for 3x5)
Good!

Only thing, don't base your weight for the supplemental lifts off of your ME work. I think Dave Tate says to work up to a 3-5rm or something like that. Either way, it should be challenging. You could just do down sets of the same exercise as well. Dave and Louie say to do 3-5 lifts at 90%+ on ME day, so 3rm and then repeat for a single or a double if you want. If I was going to do what you have planned there then I would just work up to a set of 5@8 (or 3@8, I'm not sure which is reps or sets there) and repeat for two sets or so. This is where RPE and autoregulation come into play. Things can look good on paper but if it's to easy or too hard in real life then you have a problem.

bballer99
12-10-2014, 02:20 PM
Okay I like how that looks

So going back to the same example:

CGBP 135x3, then 135x1-2 @9-9.5
SGBP x3 @8 (5% Repeat)

chris_ottawa
12-10-2014, 02:21 PM
Okay, so what if I do density training for the single leg movement (an article i found for this said you can do density training alternating one leg with the other), and myo reps for the pullups? I'm also not competing until summer comes.
It might work, that's for you to decide. Density and myo reps are basically the same thing, there are different ways you can apply both but there is no major difference. Try it out if you want, but if you start feeling burnt out or too sore/not recovering that could be a reason. What works for you might not work for me, but don't turn a powerlifting program into a density training marathon or you will probably have some problems.

bballer99
12-10-2014, 02:24 PM
alright, i'll try to keep an eye on fatigue/recovery if i do them

Myo-reps with pullups isn't that taxing tbh, just sore lats and forearms afterwards temporarily

chris_ottawa
12-10-2014, 02:29 PM
Okay I like how that looks

So going back to the same example:

CGBP 135x3, then 135x1-2 @9-9.5
SGBP x3 @8 (5% Repeat)

Try it out and see how it goes. If you plan on doing a certain number of sets then you could also decrease reps or drop weight. Just keep track of your workouts, if you are not recovering then cut back where necessary. Focus on the main lifts/ME variations, everything else is secondary. If you are having no problems then you might even be able to increase the amount of work. Izzy makes some good points, but as they say "take it with a grain of salt". That applies to anything anyone tells you.

chris_ottawa
12-10-2014, 02:31 PM
alright, i'll try to keep an eye on fatigue/recovery if i do them

Myo-reps with pullups isn't that taxing tbh, just sore lats and forearms afterwards temporarily

A lot of people use density for lats (meaning pull ups and rows) and ab work. I have never done it myself, but if you like it and it works then go ahead. I prefer to do less work with more weight.

j2917
12-10-2014, 02:38 PM
I agree with 90% of what he's saying. My main issue is that if you realize that something isn't working for you as you go along then why shouldn't you change it? Just because you wrote it down doesn't mean you have to do it, but you should definitely keep the overall theme of your program the same. I think he's taking this a bit too far. If I don't like the way something looks in next week's program then I will change it, but I'm not going to throw the whole plan out the window unless I know it's not going to work. Overall, it's good advice for beginners because they can make gains "linear progression-style", but suppose you have been doing a 5x5 program and have a 3-4 month plan as Izzy advises. If you can't make any progress after another 2 months then why would you not change it? To quote Eric Talmant: "Find a program that works, milk it for all it's worth, and then move onto something else". Don't let time be the deciding factor, but if you are going nowhere after a few months then obviously thing are not working.

The other thing is that in bballer's case, a 3-4 month plan is not going to work if he is going to be doing variations of the main lifts for ME work. I have never used the conjugate system myself and I can't say whether or not it's appropriate for someone at his level (I'm sure Louie would say it is) but you can't plan that far ahead with that kind of system. You can keep the same template, but you would have to choose exercises that target your weaknesses. At a lower level your strengths and weaknesses can change fast.

My advice: if you want to use this program then do the main lifts at least once a week, if not for the ME variation then as a supplement. You need to practice technique, starting out with nothing but variations of the main lifts will "make you a "jack of all trades, master of none".

I'm with you on this. I'm a recovering program hopper myself, slowly learning to be a program adjuster... I really just thought it was funny when I saw this video right after getting involved in this thread. I think his last quote is better than the rest of the rant: "Stick to the plan, execute the plan, evaluate the results of the plan, repeat." I have to remind myself of this all the time, especially when I have a bad workout or two. There definitely should be room to evaluate and tweak as you go, but sticking to a plan is an important discipline in all facets of life, powerlifting certainly included. And of course with all rules there's always exceptions...

And as for Louie's thoughts on Westside for beginners...I stumbled on this article a while ago when evaluating whether I wanted to try westside. I thought it was helpful: http://www.westside-barbell.com/index.php/the-westside-barbell-university/articles-by-louie-simmons/articles-published-in-2004/358-advanced-system-for-beginners

bballer99
12-10-2014, 02:51 PM
Cool, thanks for the help guys. the programming help forum continues to live up to its name.

chris_ottawa
12-10-2014, 06:44 PM
Here's the Dave Tate article I was talking about. I'm stuck in front of the computer with a baby sleeping on my lap so I might as well do something useful.

efs-classic-the-eight-keys-a-complete-guide-to-maximal-strength-development

DallasLynx
12-11-2014, 07:54 AM
Here's the Dave Tate article I was talking about. I'm stuck in front of the computer with a baby sleeping on my lap so I might as well do something useful.

efs-classic-the-eight-keys-a-complete-guide-to-maximal-strength-development

Yes, this is one of the articles I was thinking about.

There used to be an ebook sold on EFS called "basic training manual" or similar. I don't see it anymore on the site. There are now three books called "bench press manual" etc. That may replace what I was talking about. Either way, I agree with Chris, read Tate's stuff. He explains Lou's methods better than Lou does.

bballer99
12-11-2014, 01:06 PM
Okay, so I've been screwing around with my template a little, after I looked at the learning to grind article, as well as Dave Tates stuff.

Monday: RE Bench
1. RE Bench Variant - x5 @8 (Repeat) 5% or x5 @9 (Load Drop) 5% [trying to figure out which one]
2. Shoulder Press
3. Dumbbell Extensions or other similar triceps iso
4. Pullups
5. Optional chest and biceps "bodybuilding"

Tuesday: RE Squat/Deadlift (alternating)
1. RE Squat/Deadlift - x5 @8 (Repeat) 5% or x5 @9 (Load Drop) 5% [trying to figure out which one]
2. Single Leg quad dominant movement (or quad-dominant squat/deadlift variant like front squats or trap bar deads)
3. Posterior chain movement
4. Abs (Anti-Movement Movements)

Thursday: ME Bench
1. ME Bench - x3 @ 10 [also maybe include a 10% rep drop]
2. Chest Press (dumbbells, or different plane than regular bench, or both)
3. JM Press (or other heavy triceps movement)
4. Supported Row
5. Optional shoulders and biceps "bodybuilding"

Friday: RE Deadlift/Squat (alternating)
1. ME Deadlift/Squat - x3 @ 10 [also maybe include a 10% rep drop]
2. Single Leg quad dominant movement (or quad-dominant squat/deadlift variant like front squats or trap bar deads)
3. Posterior chain movement
4. Abs (Dynamic Movements)

Add 5lbs to ME Bench (after adding 2.5lbs to rep bench)
Add 10lbs to ME Squat/Deadlift (after adding 5lbs to rep squat/deadlift) [this is to make up for the ME squat and deadlift rotating weekly]
Essentially, add 10lbs each of the Big 3 after 2 weeks

j2917
12-11-2014, 01:42 PM
Just a couple things that pop out to me...

If you're trying to figure out whether to do @8 with repeats or @9 with load drops, my understanding from reading other threads is that you should choose the one most specific to your goal. Load drops will get you more volume, repeats will be geared more for intensity. You didn't list @8 with load drops as an option, but since your goal on M/T is repetition effort, that would get probably get you even more volume still.

As far as adding 5/10#, that is a good goal if it fits with your current ability to recover, but since you are using RPE to rate the set, I would suggest using your warmups to determine your readiness for the additional weight. I can't remember where, but somewhere around here there is either an article or thread explaining how to determine your top set... I'll link to it later if I find it.

bballer99
12-11-2014, 02:42 PM
Just a couple things that pop out to me...

If you're trying to figure out whether to do @8 with repeats or @9 with load drops, my understanding from reading other threads is that you should choose the one most specific to your goal. Load drops will get you more volume, repeats will be geared more for intensity. You didn't list @8 with load drops as an option, but since your goal on M/T is repetition effort, that would get probably get you even more volume still.

As far as adding 5/10#, that is a good goal if it fits with your current ability to recover, but since you are using RPE to rate the set, I would suggest using your warmups to determine your readiness for the additional weight. I can't remember where, but somewhere around here there is either an article or thread explaining how to determine your top set... I'll link to it later if I find it.


I feel I can handle the big jumps if I reduce the frequency of making big jumps, which is what this routine is all about. Although I am open to autoregulating them if needed.

I want the repetition effort to be focused on moving moderately heavy weight for volume, which will drive the max effort day, being focused on heavier weight for low volume. Is there an example for autoregulating the texas method that I can look at?

j2917
12-11-2014, 02:57 PM
This is the thread on warmups I was thinking about:

http://forum.reactivetrainingsystems.com/showthread.php?685-Working-up-to-a-double-triple-x4-x5-etc&highlight=estimate+initial

Chad wrote up a great three part series about autoregulating the texas method over yonder:

http://forcexdist.com/2014/05/15/autoregulating-the-texas-method/

bballer99
12-11-2014, 03:02 PM
perfect. I can use x5 @8 with repeats on volume/repetition day, and then ramp up to a heavy autoregulated triple on intensity/max day with singles to create a higher overall intensity like the idea presented in scenario 2 of Mark's post in the warmup thread.

Although I wouldn't mind risking @10. I never feel hammered after a PR I guess because I'm still a relatively fresh novice, so it wouldn't break me if I went all-out sometimes.

Thanks for the help man really appreciate it

bballer99
12-11-2014, 05:04 PM
Damn, I missed my planned PR for bench. I was supposed to do 135x3 to break my PR of 135x2, but I only got a single with it. What do I do now?

chris_ottawa
12-11-2014, 05:13 PM
Damn, I missed my planned PR for bench. I was supposed to do 135x3 to break my PR of 135x2, but I only got a single with it. What do I do now?

Learn about autoregulation and make PR's when you can. You are not going to make visible progress every day, and even less as time goes by. You can't expect a PR every week, if you do then you will be disappointed most of the time.

bballer99
12-11-2014, 06:17 PM
Alright, I was gonna start autoregulating next week. Should I switch my ME exercise since I failed with the current one, or try to PR next week when I start autoregulating?

j2917
12-11-2014, 11:26 PM
Damn, I missed my planned PR for bench. I was supposed to do 135x3 to break my PR of 135x2, but I only got a single with it. What do I do now?

Remember what I said earlier?


As has been said so often before, "failing to plan is planning to fail." If "Set a PR each workout" (i.e. 3RM for max effort days) is your plan, it may work for a little while...but you may want to evaluate a little more closely how exactly you plan to add weight to the bar and how often.

Set a PR of x is not a good plan. Albeit it happens a lot the earlier you are in the game, it is not a sustainable plan. Personally, I use RTS principles, but I break the rules (probably more often than I should). I'm still riding the linear gains train to some degree and I still do set PRs weekly (a lot more so right now that I'm doing 3 variations of each of the big 3 every week). It's usually anywhere between a 1RM and an 8RM on at least one exercise per training day. But it's not planned per se, and I don't get every attempt. I don't program the PRs, but I do grab them when they are within reach, and my default approach is to search one out and see if it's in the cards. I approach this by planning out 3-6 weeks at a time. I prescribe a weight and rep range I know I can hit unless of some unforeseen circumstance. Each workout I adjust the weight (the initial) using RTS principles. I adjust the reps based on the range I have planned. Lastly, I adjust the number of sets based on planned fatigue stops. This isn't a full-on RTS-approved method, but using RPEs is another tool in the toolbox to help you. So, when I go for a PR and miss it, I still have the bounds of my plan to fall back on. As has been said by many: training is building strength, not testing strength.


You can't expect a PR every week, if you do then you will be disappointed most of the time.

Unless you're this guy (http://www.johnphung.com/blog/6813/how-i-hit-prs-all-the-time-and-how-you-can-too/). But the test results aren't back yet whether he's actually human...


P.S., did you know it's usually harder to add one rep then it is to add 5 pounds? Go play with a 1RM calculator and you'll see for yourself...

bballer99
12-11-2014, 11:48 PM
Okay, looks like I have to be more effective with my programming.


I approach this by planning out 3-6 weeks at a time. I prescribe a weight and rep range I know I can hit unless of some unforeseen circumstance. Each workout I adjust the weight (the initial) using RTS principles. I adjust the reps based on the range I have planned. Lastly, I adjust the number of sets based on planned fatigue stops.

I like this. Will try to do this in some way.

On a side note, besides more actual benching, what would you recommend as a special exercise for a typical bottom-end bench weakness? I was thinking of rotating regular bench with a special bench assistance weekly for max effort; repetition effort would be done with regular bench. Squats/Deads would also be rotated like this on ME day.

(Note: I do touch and go mainly, I notice that I my pause bench is always ~10lbs behind my touch and go so they both progress when I get stronger at touch and go)

j2917
12-12-2014, 12:06 AM
what would you recommend as a special exercise for a typical bottom-end bench weakness?

I do 2 count paused and/or pin presses at chest height. It's gotten to where now I think my weakness is moving to mid-upper. But I'm not going to change anything yet. I'm not sure I'm ready to asses my own weak points accurately: I'm just plain weak.

Johno
12-12-2014, 10:48 AM
Just to play devils advocate here...

You're spot on in terms of doing (and sticking to) a program you believe in. But why do you believe in Westside? It has consistently been shown to be inferior when done by raw lifters. This is just a fact; it is an inefficient template for meeting the essential principles of training we know of. Essentially not a single high level raw lifter trains that way, and more importantly they didn't get to the level they are today through those methods either (apart from a few examples who dabbled a bit like Mike T - but he's a freak so ignore him ;) and I'm sure he wouldn't put his current level down to that time he spent Westsiding).

The point is, I presume you 'believe' in this program because you've read elitefts or you've read about how strong Westside is/they're the best in the world etc etc. Think about this...Alternatively if your reading/knowledge had centred on JTS articles/RTS articles/Dan Green/Sheiko/any other quality raw focused powerlifting literature...you'd 'believe' in that style of training.

Without a doubt believe in your program and give it all you got...Just make sure you have the 'correct' program utilising the necessary principles we know are paramount to good programming. Westside and it's very close derivatives are not it, unless you want to modify it majorly (http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2012/06/15/how-i-would-westside/), but then it's not Westside. You're simply edging closer and closer towards a better program, that in all honesty you'd do much better to embrace in the first place.

bballer99
12-12-2014, 12:46 PM
Dude I'm basically combing chad's version in that article plus some stuff from mikes learning to grind article. I'm not all about dem triceps and hamstrings and max effort reverse band 4 board press, I know how raw lifting works. I just like doing westside because its fun and works for me. That's why the thread is called westside-ish.

Johno
12-12-2014, 07:39 PM
As I said "You're simply edging closer and closer towards a better program, that in all honesty you'd do much better to embrace in the first place."..if your goal is getting stronger most efficiently.

But..
I just like doing westside because its fun
That's the sole reason I see for doing anything that resembles Westside. Fair do's, if it suits your mentally - Good luck fella.

bballer99
12-12-2014, 09:39 PM
Tbh, I am running westside because it allows me to have more freedom with the programming. I always feel like I'm locked into the bounds of the program when I do something like starting strength or similar, and it just lowers my motivation to continue doing the routine. it always felt like a job.

“Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life.” - Confucius

Mike Tuchscherer
12-19-2014, 02:53 AM
Committing the sin of not reading the whole thread. Just no time these days. Sue me. :)

There are tons of ways to have freedom in programming and still have programming be effective. You just need to understand the principles. Here are some ideas to help further your education:
1) Search the forums for information about a Flex Template
2) Enroll in Classroom (https://store.reactivetrainingsystems.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Classroom) and start learning about developing your own training programs
3) Get more at the core of *why* things are done the way they are. This understanding will help you not get distracted by shiny objects (arched back cambered bar good mornings with a backwards hat).