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Thread: undulating and fiber type recovery

  1. #11
    Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
    <<I think Mike suggested to flatten the force curve first and then work on training power?>>
    Yes, sort of. I think if your force curve is flat, then you want to practice developing force at the bottom of the lift. Not necessarily Power work, but it resembles it more closely (training with slightly lower RPE's).

    Roy, to get back to your original question, here's what I think the author is getting at...

    If you have a lower rep, high intensity day then presumably your low threshold fibers (which are more fatigue resistant) don't get taxed enough to break down. The high threshold ones do, though. Then on the high rep days, you would get more volume taxing the lower threshold fibers, but the intensity wouldn't be high enough to affect the high threshold fibers.

    As for what I think... I don't buy it and I don't think it matters.
    First, I don't think that's an accurate explanation of what happens in the body. It's been a while, but I've seen some research showing that once you pass a certain percentage (I don't remember exactly, but I want to say 50-60%) then you're recruiting all your muscle fibers anyway.

    But even if I'm wrong and the above comes from junk science... I don't think it matters that much anyway. It's a narrative meant to explain why something works. I don't think that narrative should drive you to changes in your training program. You should do what works because it works. Seek explanation, sure. But it's role should be to enhance belief. I wouldn't alter my training program based on this kind of reasoning.

  2. #12
    Donald Lee wrote:
    <<<As for what I think... I don't buy it and I don't think it matters.
    First, I don't think that's an accurate explanation of what happens in the body. It's been a while, but I've seen some research showing that once you pass a certain percentage (I don't remember exactly, but I want to say 50-60%) then you're recruiting all your muscle fibers anyway.>>>

    Full recruitment occurs at ~80-85% 1RM. I think you may be thinking about occlusion. I can't recall when occlusion occurs. It was either 45% or 65% 1RM.

    I agree with you with respects to Roy's question. Fatigue and recovery are complex topics on which I'm not very well read. I believe muscle fibers are repaired w/in 24-48 hrs, with trained folks being closer to the 24 hr mark. I'm not sure how joint repair comes into play, though I suspect it's more of a long-term concern than a day-in, day-out concern. I think there is some research that looks into the neuromuscular junction and neurotransmitter involvement in recovery. Then, there's the central nervous system, endocrine system, etc.

    IMO, unless you're doing traditional DUP or mixing in muscular endurance work, the differences in rep ranges won't be large enough to make a difference with respects to Roy's idea.

  3. #13
    vic616283 wrote:
    There seems to be a very popular notion that if you just get "strong enough" you will use momentum from your strong joint angle to overcome the lack of strength at your weak joint angle. In other words, you "blast through" your sticking points. I personally believe this approach is vastly inferior to paused movements, but to each their own.

  4. #14
    Oni wrote:
    Do paused movements work by increasing power? Or are you just making a lift harder and giving more TUT?

  5. #15
    markccj wrote:
    Pretty much what I inferred, but am probably wrong. I think I was considering myself because I can grind through a max effort, and I've done most exclusively rep work till recently so I'm guessing my force curve is flat and I need more explosiveness because my *RM is so close to my 1RM.
    [0ni 2012-12-24 00:00:28]:

    I have a hard time believing that someone would "raise" their sticking point by working on power.

    I think Mike suggested to flatten the force curve first and then work on training power?



    I think I meant what Mike has elucidated:




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    [Mike Tuchscherer 2012-12-26 08:25:04]:


    <<I think Mike suggested to flatten the force curve first and then work on training power?>>
    Yes, sort of. I think if your force curve is flat, then you want to practice developing force at the bottom of the lift. Not necessarily Power work, but it resembles it more closely (training with slightly lower RPE's)



    I think the objective of paused work, apart from the TUT in the weak position, might be similar to what Mike mentioned above: improving force at the bottom of the lift.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    [0ni 2012-12-28 22:42:17]:


    Do paused movements work by increasing power? Or are you just making a lift harder and giving more TUT?



    But I'm not sure. I'm just surmising from everything I've read but have yet to practice because this is pertinent to my situation.

  6. #16
    Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
    <<Do paused movements work by increasing power? Or are you just making a lift harder and giving more TUT?>>

    They work by increasing the TUT at the desired joint angle. A normal rep in the bench might take between 1.5 and 2 seconds depending on the lift. And only a fraction of that is spent at any one position. But if you do a 2ct or 3ct pause at the bottom, you are getting much more "volume" at that position. This helps develop strength. It's not necessarily power, but the maximum force that can be generated in the bottom position.



    <<I can grind through a max effort>>

    I've found that this doesn't really indicate the shape of your force curve much. There are flats and wedges both that can grind a great deal.

  7. #17
    Oni wrote:
    Thank you so much

    I ordered the DVD on force curves and weakness analysis but due to living in 'straya it's not arrived yet so I have this question. On the bench press especially, my force curve is pretty fucked up as I lived on a diet of mainly triples at submax weights for a while. I've recently been hitting the heavy paused triples as my max effort work to fix this. I can touch and go 7 reps with 87.5% of my paused max. My knowledge goes as far as more reps = flatter force curve and good at repping = more top end work. But what the hell do I do when I'm a weird combination of a decent repper but have an odd force curve? I don't know the terminology but my bench rep will start off fast and get half way and practically stop moving then it's a grinder all the way to finishing it and a very slow rep. When I miss I hit the bad part of the lift and can push for a good 6 seconds before giving in. It doesn't move it just stays there

  8. #18
    markccj wrote:
    Thanks, Mike.

    I'm testing my maxes in about a week, after the final 2 days of the RTS Dr Squat Cycle, where I'll be filming them for an IWA. In the meantime I've uploaded some vids for critique.

  9. #19
    Mike Tuchscherer wrote:
    <<My knowledge goes as far as more reps = flatter force curve and good at repping = more top end work.>>
    Well, it's not that cut and dry. The force curve is about how your force production changes through the rep. Being good at reps doesn't necessarily mean much to your force curve.

    << I've recently been hitting the heavy paused triples as my max effort work to fix this. I can touch and go 7 reps with 87.5% of my paused max.>>
    That sounds close to my deadlift. By the numbers, I should be able to do 7 reps with 86% or 87%.

  10. #20
    Ben Burgess wrote:
    Apologies for bringing the thread back to an old point, but this is something I've always struggled with conceptually.

    I have first hand experience of the suggestion below being extremely effective - my DL force curve is consistently described as flat under video analysis or IWA, usually with a weakness off the floor. Correspondingly, i apply the recommendations given in the TGPSS dvd of using primarily lower RPEs (x2-3 @8-8.5), which invariably results in more volume (often 4 or 5 working sets before reaching 5% fatigue).

    I gained around 45lbs on my DL last year, by training almost exclusively with these protocols, so the advice was bang on the money for me.

    Mike - in the past, IIRC you wrote that the efficacy of this training effect for flat force curves was because you get more "first reps" where you generate the most power. How does that sit with the discussion in this thread where we're talking about how power is relatively unimportant in PL as long as you complete the lift?

    I always assumed that (for flat FCDs) where you are weak at the bottom of a lift (e.g. out of the hole on squat) then the training effect of the x2@8-type work was that the body was learning to generate force quicker, but then earlier in this thread there was discussion of how the time taken to develop force was unimportant, so I was clearly wrong.

    I know that the advice works, but my OCD brain needs to understand WHY it works. Can you clear it up for me? In terms of force production/biology/physiology, what ability is the x2@8-type protocol training?

    Thanks mate.

    EDIT - after reading the "Right RPE" thread, just to clarify, our RPE assessments are @8=3 reps left, @8.5=2 reps left.

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